Friday, November 05, 2004

Andrew Strom

I need to interupt my Future series because of what has happened with Andrew Strom. For those of you who haven't a clue as to who I'm talking about, let me give some background.

In one of my first posts, True Revival, I set forth the differences between this so-called current (Third Wave) false revival and the true one I sense is following.

Enter Andrew Strom. A few years ago I found a prophetic email list hosted by one Andrew Strom from New Zealand. At first of course I thought it would be another Third Wave prophetic tool. But, I began to see that this guy was not of the Third Wave ilk. In fact he even had grave reservations about the Toronto "blessing." The more I read his list, the more I saw he probably was a forerunner of the true prophets in the true revival.

But then he got the idea to leave New Zealand and come to America. And that is where the problems began. He landed in Kansas City, Mike Bickle land, the one who introduced the "prophets" to the vineyard in the 80's. And that was the forerunner of the current movement. Add Dr. C. Peter Wagner, John Arnott and the Browsnville crowd and presto! You have the Third Wave.

Since Mr. Strom has arrived on America's shores, his message seems to have changed radically. That is, unless he believed these things all along. There are two main problems I saw, that is until recently when he got his eyes open to the first one.

First, he began to really get behind the Third Wave prophets like Cain, Jones, Joyner and the gang. I won't be so unkind as to let you in on what is going on with some of these guys..but let's say they are in disaray as to "purity." For instance, right now, Bickle and company are tearing their hair out trying to figure out what to do with Paul Cain. I've predicted this for 15 years. And what happened to Strom at the "conference" could have been predicted. One simply needs discernment which is sorely lacking in the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches today.

So first, Strom thinks these prophets are hot stuff. Then he attends a conference where his discernment finally kicks in. The prophets are there and he doesn't like what he senses. No, I would imagine not. Very occultic (those are my words) and disturbing to the spirit. If you go to his website and read why he is leaving the Prophetic movement you will see the reasons listed. And he couldn't have described the Third Wave occultism any better. So now he has decided, and this are his words, "to leave the prophetic movement." Uh, Andrew, I hate to inform you but the Third Wave prophets are NOT the only game in town. There are others, truer ones like Jacob Prasch, David Wilkerson and maybe Art Katz. I have an idea. Why not join up with those folks?

Second, the other distressing thing that many of us are seeing from Strom is his fascination for the teachings of Charles Finney. Add to that a few whacked out theological ideas and we ahve big problems. He recently presented a series called The Nine Lies of Today's Church.

Here they are in the order he presented them. Most of them are fine, but he does what so many tend to do--go to an extreme. I offer my comments after the dash (-).

1. Asking Jesus into your heart-I agree..isn't in the Bible
2. Church buildings do not exist in the Bible-I think he goes a little overboard here. However, I agree that at times too much money and time is spent on these buldings.
3. The "one pastor runs everything" model- a BIG amen for this one..yes!
4. Tithing is not a New Testament practice-another big amen
5. The words "prosper" and "prosperity" were never used by Jesus at all-Agreed but there is the OT model of prosperity for some--not all and certainly not ostentationess. But let's not go back to the other exteme of the poverty model. There were both rich, poor and in-between in the early first century church. It depends on what God has called you to do and with whom and to whom.
6. There were no Bible colleges or seminaries in the early church period-I have to take issue with him on this one, but I will save that for another time.
7. There is no evidence whatsoever that the early church had their main meeting on Sunday. They basically met everyday from house to house-OK..but let's have leeway here.
8. He says we have replaced the Holy Spirit with programs and more programs.--Yes we have....amen.
9. We preach a humanistic Jeuss today--Yes indeedy we do.

My big recommendation for Mr. Strom is to read anything by Michael Horton. He badly needs to balance the Finneyism.

Here is Andrew Strom's website. You can read the Nine Lies of Today's Church in depth; why he is leaving the "Prophetic Movement," and so forth. You can also sign up to be on his ANZAC email list.
You can also hear his teachings on audio. You will hear what I consider to be a forerunner of the true last day prophets. I just hope he will get back on track in some areas.

Andrew Stroms website is Revival Supersite.

Listen to his teachings here. I would recommend the Thundering in Nashville one.

13 comments:

passthebread said...

WOW.
I think I am going to have to make a post on this whole "third wave prophet thing". I have a voided it as I do not like to be devisive. I really think I can help here. A few comments:
1. Watch out for a "last days/end times" dispensation. This I think is what totally messed up the Vineyard at Anaheim. People stopped entering the life now and began to wait for the super revival. Revival is the Spirit helping us see the unchanging truth of Grace.
2. Watch out for legalism. This idea of "a wind of holiness followed by a wind of power" is just another way to say your works qualifies usa for the Holy Spirit. This actually undermines power. More later.
3. SUPER BIG WATCH OUT for "people with a high internal sense of calling". People who think thye have some special calling (like prophet) are super hyper unaccountable.
Anyway, I think I will write about this. I never liked the prophetic because I early on (1988) or so rejected finney and arminian legalism. Then, when I saw the damage that the toronto blessing did to the people I was pastoring, I was out of there in 1998. The bottom line is that this type of thinking doesn't disciple well.
brad

Cosmo said...

Trackback from Cosmo's Call:
Paul Cain Plunges - Joyner Sends Mixed Message.
Excerpt:Paul Cain, considered by many to be the top "prophet" in the Kansas City Prophets group, has plunged from his position after being exposed for living a double life. The following message was posted on the Morning Star website by fellow "prophets" Rick Joyner, Jack Deere and Mike Bickle on October 19 2004:
...

Diane at Crossroads also looks at Strom's current position on the Kansas City prophets and the "Third Wave" movement and makes good points on Strom finally getting some discernment...

Cosmo said...

I left a trackback here as you don't have trackback. I've linked to your post in Paul Cain Plunges - Joyner Sends Mixed Message. I hope that's ok.

Diane said...

Brad,

Boy...do you ever have these people's number...LOL.

Cosmo,
Thank you very much..I am going over right now to read your blog.

TheBalmofGilead said...

The Lord in never caught by surprise! There are certain things that are emphasised - the idea of church hierarchy is damaging. Often the leaders are those who have come out of wounded or damaged histories and need restoration. But the image created of them means they are unable to expose their vulnerabilities to others. There are no superstars in the kingdom of God. If there are then each one is a superstar as we are all part of the Body of Christ and minister to one another. Another area is the humility to listen to another (who may have an awesome revelation not given to Mr. Big Man) and receive that revelation once it is confirmed by the Lord. Pride in leadership is a very subtle destroyer and very dangerous. Love is extremely important. Love for the Lord with your whole being and being transparent 100% before the Lord and be willing to have His agenda not yours sincerely. If you cannot do this do not minister to anybody. Please find a job if you are a minister. Loving others - Jesus said whatever you do to the least of my bretheren you did it to Him. When ministers fall let us evaluate them in love and discernment. Thank God no one knows everything. We need each other. That is a body ministry. We could have failings in our flesh which satan can magnify if our brothers do not hold us up. satan is the common enemy. If a person who professes to know Christ is obstinate we should be watchful not to be emotional about the "not touching the annointed" business which has decieved innocent sheep into believing the lies of the enemy coming out of leaders who are trying to eat the sheep as they could be led by spirits of control or intimidation. It is a doctrine, sadly misusing John Bevere's book "Under Cover" sometimes for abuse of believers. We are told to test the spirits and we can safely do this if we continously go to the Lord for counsel and keep our motives and hearts before the Father. In the last days there will be seducing spirits and the Lord says that the very elect could be deceived. How important it is to test the spirits. I have see mighty spiritual manifestations with ministers who do not live the Word or have the tender heart of Christ in their lives manifested. I am reminded over and over again of the scripture in Mathew where the Lord says - there would be those who would say they did mighty things in His Name and He would say - I do not know you. The Lord will honor His Word and He loves His people. In the Old Testament the people of Israel to be saved had to go to Babylon and live there. Unholy vessels may have a purpose we do not know of. Ultimately each person stands or falls before the Father. None of us have a right to judge any man. Trust the Lord with all your heart. Be bold to seek His will and His voice alone and to be quick to discern His direction. You may seem like one in a thousand but if your heart is right before God and you can truly say that, then you could be the only one hearing the Lord from that thousand. In these days the ratio of those who hear the Lord and those who do could be that low. Continuously check your heart before the Father and be sincere before Him. Ask Him for all you need. I asked the Lord to cause me to love Him as I felt I did not love Him enough. I came to a point where I would weep walking along the streets thinking about the Lord. I fell so in love with Him. The Lord is a winner all the time. He is fully aware of the things on this earth. Trust Him and love Him. He could use one person to change a nation.

Daniel Detroit said...

Where does Paul call the gospel he preaches a movement of any kind. Paul preached the true gospel from beginning to the end of His ministry, that the Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, He was buried and He rose again the third day according to all the writings of the prophets.(1 Cor 15:1-6) There are no exceptions to all the writings of the prophets testifying of Christ Jesus. This is the exact same good spell or good words that Jesus spoke (Luke 24). Paul does not preach one gospel and Jesus another. So when a man says he leaves the Prophetic movement what does he mean. JUDGE ALL THINGS BY THE TRUE GOSPEL. He says he is leaving a place where the gospel is not preached. And where is he going? What message is he now preaching?-the message of revival. The message of revival is not the true gospel. It is another wind of doctrine. So the man has simply gone from one place of deception to another. Well spake the Holy Spirit concerning the generation of judgment, "All the prophets prophesy and my people love it."

Allen said...

Jesus did not eat pork!
Jesus did not attend church on Sunday!
Jesus only read from the Scriptures!
The Berean's only searched the Scriptures!
Were the Gentiles grafted into the Jewish tree? If so, doesn't that make them Jews?

Shalom

Allen said...

Jesus did not eat pork!
Jesus did not attend church on Sunday!
Jesus only read from the Scriptures!
The Berean's searched the Scriptures!
Were the Gentiles grafted into the Jewish tree? If so, doesn't that make them Jews?

Shalom

Shane said...

As a tither who gladly offers my tithe (as unto the Lord) as I want there to be "food in the store house" I find it hypocritical to make allowance for "prosperity" teachings by saying there was an OT model to refer to even though it is not in the NT.

Then bold as day to state that tithing is not in the NT but fail to add that we do however see an OT model for it as well.

Keeping in mind that by this model God promises to rebuke the devourer for us... which would seem a prerequisite for your earlier stance on prosperity.

However in all things the Lord knows your heart and if you are going to tithe with a grudging heart rather spend it on yourself but don't try to dissuade those who would offer it gladly were it not for your negative intervention.

Robert Winkler Burke said...

Perhaps the future of the church is towards more orthodoxy, but somewhat relaxed...

Orthodox Christians do not believe in rapture, prosperity, seeker-friendly-truth-avoidance, eternal security or other various escapist theology.

Yet Orthodox religions can be too rigid. Rigid righteousness is an almost eternal problem God has when dealing with his religious stick-necks.

In truth, the highest guidepost of mature (not immature) but mature organizations (such as the US Marines, the FAA, and the First Guidepost (also called Commandment) is.... there are no fixed rules, only guidelines.... and there is an exception to every rule

This denies the enemy the ability to box-trap adherents of the rule. By not allowing rules to be fixed, but be always guideposts.... common sense wins... instead of the enemy..... which sometimes ends up being a elf-asserting, greedy, blind leader!

So, the prophet of the future would hope religious leaders would repent of being rigid-righteous rule-makers, rules that they say no one can break, ever!

Yet, logically, every leader necessarily breaks the rules of the plebes. It takes maturity to think all this through, which low-level shepherds HATE.

See: www.inthatdayteachings.com.

And if you think true prophetic teachings are easy on go-along-get-along doctrines.... think again.

Robert Winkler Burke
Reno, Nevada
775-690-7293

Francesca said...

Andrew Strom has not left the prophetic movement per say just to the ones that relate to these deceiving and false prophets. Please do not let what is going on in the church today discourage any of you from not receiving true apostles and prophets of God. God has called TRUE apostles and prophets who are going to expose and kick these devils out of the church and bring order. Remember, the enemy copies all the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he can deceive many but God is in control. Ask for all the gifts but especially discernment. We need to stand as true Christians and walk in power and authority, signs and wonders so that the church can see what is truly of God and come to repentance. My husband and I have for the past 25 years been exposing the enemy within the church, bringing order and restoring those that have been hurt. We must walk in love and with such power so that we can by the Power of the Holy Spirt open the eyes of those that have been deceived.

Truly we are in the last days- Matt 24:23-25 is happening among the church. The enemy is deceiving the body and even renowned men of God. Many well known so called prophets are teaching of a healing angel. Totally demonic and a familiar spirit operating within the church. The Holy Spirit does not cause you to act like an animal or cause you to shake uncontrollably. We have control over our bodies. The scripture says that the Spirit is subject to the body. Father have mercy on Your people!! We must be in continual prayer and fasting. The body of Christ is in such need of discernment. Father, open the eyes of Your children and give them keen discernment so that they may not be misled or deceived during these trying times.

The time is come, the time is at hand for the Church to STAND with boldness in the Spirit of Elijah and wherever our feet shall tread upon is HOLY GROUND! We bring the presence and Glory of God wherever we go!! Time to bring down fire from Heaven to destroy the works of the enemy, tearing down the kingdom of darkness and establishing the Kingdom of our God!

It is time for the church to be a church that turns over the tables of the moneychangers. We need to be as radical as Jesus was and stand for what is righteous, true and holy!!

It is time for the church to be the CHURCH and kill the entertainment spirit and tickling the ears. We should come together not with a “what’s in it for me” attitude and worrying about the carnal “Sunday Fashion Show”, but to gather together in spirit and truth to minister unto our God.

We must take a stand for what is righteous, holy and true and get back to a No Compromise, Zero Tolerance, No Apologies and destroy the Status Quo. The time is at hand – there is a lost and dying world that needs to know the Love of the Father and come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior. For the true spirit of God to prevail within the Body of Christ. We have the answer for all of life’s questions and his name is Jesus!!

Terry W. said...

Francesco- you have hit on so many of the points the Lord has had me working on- taking a stand- turning over the tables in the temples- and truly an uncomprimising love for our Lord and Savior.
Thank you - you are truly a blessing and I for one am so glad to tell you God Bless you for all you have said here and I am sure for all you do.

Arira said...

Please read this book:
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.
Recognising and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church.
By David Johnson and Jeff Van Voderen.