I've found that Christian books do not cover all subjects as well as many non-Christian ones. I also have found that Christian books on non-fiction subjects outside of theology tend to be very basic and sugar coated. So, I do read secular non-fiction books on the economy, politics, business, at times science and on other subjects also.
Well, now I've discovered Tammy Bruce. At first the evangelical might be horrified that I am reading this lady. After all, she is a lesbian activist (but not the extreme ACT UP type) and the former president of the Los Angeles chapter of NOW.
But in a strange turn of events, she has become almost conservative in many ways and has found out something about us...the evangelical Christian that is.
What she found out is that we aren't a terrible sicko extremist hateful group of people after all. In fact, she was blown away when after the OJ Simpson verdict when she was raising funds for her anti-domestic violence activism, she writes that many evangelicals silently contributed to that cause.
Ms. Bruce was fired from her NOW job because the NOW head honchos back east didn't like her talking out loud and holding news conferences about domestic violence. What you ask? NOW (the National Organization of Women-the premiere feminist group) didn't want her to speak out about that? Why not? Well, it seems that many black women liked OJ, and didn't like Ms. Bruce using him as the domestic abuse example. So, they told her to stuff it. She said no...and they said in essence, "Well, then Hasta la vista Baby!"
After that she joined a conservative talk radio station...the one Rush Limbaugh is on. Now she is on the other station--the one Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity are on.
Amazing.
She also has become a correspondent for the Fox News Network. And, she writes for the paper begun by David Horowitz, the former Berkeley radical turned conservative.
And, why are these two now more conservative? (although not always on some social issues. Ms. Bruce is still pro-abortion and pro-gay rights).
Well, they SAW the truth. And both write about it. Horowitz wrote Radical Son in which he describes how he finally wakes up to the fact that the radicals of the 60's were way too much into the end justifies the means even to the point of hooking up with the murderous Black Panthers.
Ms. Bruce has written two books since 2000. The first one is The New Thought Police and the one just published is The Death of Right and Wrong.
She lets us no in uncertain terms in both books, but especially in the latter that there really is an inquistion (as she calls it) of evangelicals from the Left Elite. Why? Because, she said, they are so unhealthy because of childhood traumas that they must incorporate these happenings into their own worldview and come against anybody or any group that does not share them. In other words, their unhealthiness must be validated.
The one part of her writing that made me sit up and notice was why she thought Christians were intolerant horrible people. IT WAS BECUSE SHE NEVER MET ANY. She says that the pro-gay, pro-black and pro-feminist groups just never do meet any Christians. But when Ms. Bruce finally got out of her insular feminist world into the radio station and met both Dr. Laura Schlessinger (an Orthodox Jewess) and a few Christians, she was shocked that they just did not fit the sterotypes that the left brainwashed her with.
So, what can we learn from this? We need to keep going in the direction that we are..that is, to hob nob with the world. As the Scripture says, to be in the world but not of it. It is apparent that the reason Christians are in this mess is becuse for the first part of the 20th century they hid. Now, thankfully, they are poking their heads about into the sunlight and learning to live there. For example, Christian children should attend pulic school if at all possible.
That is the only area that I see in which we are still hiding. Thankfully Christian actors, actesses, writers, and so forth are now invading Hollywood. It's been too long. However, they need to keep their Christianity in tact as that world can so easily corrupt. And now, I am seeing Christian books on how to be a Christian in business and even how to run a business as a Christian and what that means. These are so welcome IMO.
Tammy Bruce's books are welcome if disturbing. I hope you will read them. I got my copies from my local library::)
Saturday, July 31, 2004
Friday, July 30, 2004
Rambling Observations
Today...some rambling observations
1st rambling observation
Last night John Kerry said he will raise taxes on those who make over $200,000. The problem with this is..they will only pay taxes on what is left AFTER they put the rest in tax-free shelters that are ONLY available to those who make over a millon a year. And get this..the Congress passed those laws...special investments that pay way more than regular investments for those who make over a million a year. And I believe that John Kerry would know about that.
So, if someone makes 2 million a year, let's say they put 1.8 million in these shelter investments that make at least 15% (while the average mutual fund today is making only about 4-6 %). Let's say they pay taxes on the $200,000 they take to live on out which would be $76,000 (38%). With state taxes added (depending on which state they live in) they will have about $100,000 left + the at least 15% of the 1.8 mil they invested which equals $270,000. Let's say they take out 100,000 of that and reinvest the rest. They would pay $38,000 on the $100,000 they take out which equals $114,000 in taxes. However, if they paid the federal tax of 38% of the original 2 million, that would be $760,000. They paid $114,000, not 760,000. So they save $646,000. Not bad.
Of course this is a hypothetical example. I'm sure there are many more loopholes that I don't know about but the millionaires' accountants do. If everyone paid a flat tax of 10% for those making let's say between $30,000 and 500,000 and 15% for those making over 500,000 and 5% for those making less than 30,000, then what would a 2 million a year person be taxed? By the way, I am very much in favor of a flat tax.
Well, 15% of 2 million equals $300,000. Remember, if they paid the entire current federal tax on the 2 mil they would pay $760,000 in taxes. So under a 15% flat tax with NO investment loopholes, they would still save $460,000 on the 2 mil. And if they wished to invest the rest or some of the rest..fine, they still would save 23% in taxes on the interest.
But the Congress will never pass a flat tax becaue their wealthy accountant firm donors would be out of work. Sigh...such is the way of the world. I hope you followed all of that....LOL
2nd rambling observation
In the current issue (Aug. 2004) of Christianity Today magazine there are some cute ideas for bumper stickers. Here are a few I found neato:
*Men who change diapers change the world.
*I'm for the separation of church and hate.
*I considered atheism but there weren't enough holidays.
*Lord, help me be the person my dog thinks I am.
*"God is dead."--Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead"--God
*Jesus saves; Buddha recycles.
*Be kind to your kids. They will choose your nursing home.
3rd rambling observation
A Bush staffer actually said this:
"American workers unhappy with their jobs should find a new one--or pop a Prozac to make themselves feel better."
Hmmmm...doesn't sound like Compassionate Conservatism does it.
1st rambling observation
Last night John Kerry said he will raise taxes on those who make over $200,000. The problem with this is..they will only pay taxes on what is left AFTER they put the rest in tax-free shelters that are ONLY available to those who make over a millon a year. And get this..the Congress passed those laws...special investments that pay way more than regular investments for those who make over a million a year. And I believe that John Kerry would know about that.
So, if someone makes 2 million a year, let's say they put 1.8 million in these shelter investments that make at least 15% (while the average mutual fund today is making only about 4-6 %). Let's say they pay taxes on the $200,000 they take to live on out which would be $76,000 (38%). With state taxes added (depending on which state they live in) they will have about $100,000 left + the at least 15% of the 1.8 mil they invested which equals $270,000. Let's say they take out 100,000 of that and reinvest the rest. They would pay $38,000 on the $100,000 they take out which equals $114,000 in taxes. However, if they paid the federal tax of 38% of the original 2 million, that would be $760,000. They paid $114,000, not 760,000. So they save $646,000. Not bad.
Of course this is a hypothetical example. I'm sure there are many more loopholes that I don't know about but the millionaires' accountants do. If everyone paid a flat tax of 10% for those making let's say between $30,000 and 500,000 and 15% for those making over 500,000 and 5% for those making less than 30,000, then what would a 2 million a year person be taxed? By the way, I am very much in favor of a flat tax.
Well, 15% of 2 million equals $300,000. Remember, if they paid the entire current federal tax on the 2 mil they would pay $760,000 in taxes. So under a 15% flat tax with NO investment loopholes, they would still save $460,000 on the 2 mil. And if they wished to invest the rest or some of the rest..fine, they still would save 23% in taxes on the interest.
But the Congress will never pass a flat tax becaue their wealthy accountant firm donors would be out of work. Sigh...such is the way of the world. I hope you followed all of that....LOL
2nd rambling observation
In the current issue (Aug. 2004) of Christianity Today magazine there are some cute ideas for bumper stickers. Here are a few I found neato:
*Men who change diapers change the world.
*I'm for the separation of church and hate.
*I considered atheism but there weren't enough holidays.
*Lord, help me be the person my dog thinks I am.
*"God is dead."--Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead"--God
*Jesus saves; Buddha recycles.
*Be kind to your kids. They will choose your nursing home.
3rd rambling observation
A Bush staffer actually said this:
"American workers unhappy with their jobs should find a new one--or pop a Prozac to make themselves feel better."
Hmmmm...doesn't sound like Compassionate Conservatism does it.
Thursday, July 29, 2004
Mrs. Heinz Kerry's Speech
Here is an excerpt of Teresa (that's pronounced Tayraysa) Heinz Kerry's speech to the Democratic Convention Tuesday night. I have italicized part of the speech--the part I want to talk about with you.
"The Americans John and I have met in the course of this campaign all want America to provide hopeful leadership again. They want America to return to its moral bearings. It is not a moralistic America they seek, but a moral nation that understands and willingly shoulders it's obligations; a moral nation that rejects thoughtless and greedy choices in favor of thoughtful and generous actions; a moral nation that leads through the power of its ideas and the power of its example."
This is a clever way to appeal to the average American; substitute the word "moral" for "moralistic." Of course most people will realize that what she means by "moralistic" is the Judeo-Christian morality. Interesting huh...what do you think of this part of her speech?
"The Americans John and I have met in the course of this campaign all want America to provide hopeful leadership again. They want America to return to its moral bearings. It is not a moralistic America they seek, but a moral nation that understands and willingly shoulders it's obligations; a moral nation that rejects thoughtless and greedy choices in favor of thoughtful and generous actions; a moral nation that leads through the power of its ideas and the power of its example."
This is a clever way to appeal to the average American; substitute the word "moral" for "moralistic." Of course most people will realize that what she means by "moralistic" is the Judeo-Christian morality. Interesting huh...what do you think of this part of her speech?
Wednesday, July 28, 2004
The "ME" generations
For the past 5 decades we've had a phenomenon here in the USA that is fairly unique in Modern History. Everything revolves around children and teens.
The family revolves around them...their feelings must be considered FIRST.
The educational establishment revovles around them. Don't bore them; don't discipline them-an extremely child-centered educational philosophy. I don't mind a little of that, but today it is at the very edge.
The society revolves around them....children and teens are talked about a lot. The merchandising merchants want to know what teens want, what music they want to hear; what TV shows they wish to see; what movies they will attend; what they will buy.
One would think that the church at least would put teens and children back into reality. But no. Since 1970 the church has also decided to be child centered. We have allowed teens to blackmail us. It goes like this:
"If you don't do it our way, then we won't come to church anymore."
This statemnt makes church leaders cringe and wet their pants in panic.
They will do ANYTHING to keep the "young people" in the church.
I say let them go. If we teach what we are supposed to teach in our youth groups (we don't have to be boring of course) then the Holy Spirit will draw the right teens to the church and Wow! We might even have a REAL youth revival.
We might have teens that really do what they say and not turn around during the week and then do something else. We might have teens and children who begin to really work out their problems.
This might send a message to the Christian parents that they too can regain their rule in the home, and, while perhaps considering what their child or teen wants, they will simply refuse to allow the child to have their own way and rule the family through intimidation adn blackmail.
When we raise children to think the world revolves around them, then when they become adults, they have a very difficult concept of God. God says the world revovles around His Son Jesus Christ. So, one god has to go. I bet you know which one.
Here is a poem I found in my stuff. I think it is great!
A Child's Bill of Rights
My son came home from school one day,with that smile on his face.
Watch me blow my Mom away, I'll put her in her place
Gues what I learned in Civics Two taught by Mr. Wright
It was all about the law today, THE CHILDREN'S BILL OF RIGHTS.
I don't have to clean my room or even cut my hair.
No one can tell me what to eat or choose the clothes I wear.
Freedom of speech is my Constitutional guarantee. It is my choice of what to read or watch on the T.V.
I have the freedom of religion, and no matter what you say,
I don't have to ask God for help, I don't have to kneel to pray.
I can also wear an earring in my ear or even peirce my nose.
I can have the Devil's number tattooed across my back.
Hey, If you ever spank me, I can charge you with assault.
I can back up my charges with the black and blue results.
Don't ever touch my body, It is for me to use
for all those hugs and kisses are a form a sex abuse.
Don't fill my head with morals like your mother did to you.
There's such a thing called mind control that's illegal too.
Mom, I have these children's rghts. You can't do a thing to me.
I'll just call the children's services, better known as C.S.D.
My very first impression was to toss him out the door, But here is a chance to teach a lesson for once and ever more.
I kind of mulled it over, but I didn't let it go.
This kid of mine doesn't realize, he is working with a pro.
The next day I took him shopping, much to his dismay.
I didn't buy him 501s or shirts designed by Nike.
I called and talked to C.S.D. They said they didn't care if I bought him Volume shoes, or a pair of Nike Airs.
I canceled out his apointment to test his driving skills.
I'd probably be dead right now, if only looks could kill.
I don't have time to stop and eat, get stuff for you to much,
I followed C.S.D.'s advice I bought you a big sack lunch.
So you say you're not so hungry, You can wait till dinner time.
I'm fixing liver and onions, a favorite dish of mine.
So, you want to get a movie to watch on the VCR.
Gosh! I sold that televison to buy tires for my car.
I also rented out your room, You don't really need a bed.
All I really have to do is put a roof over your head.
As long as I buy your clothes and all the food you eat.
I can keep your allowance and buy me something really neat.
I know you like the tacos after we have shopped all day.
Son, I have my bill of rights, they go into effect today.
The family revolves around them...their feelings must be considered FIRST.
The educational establishment revovles around them. Don't bore them; don't discipline them-an extremely child-centered educational philosophy. I don't mind a little of that, but today it is at the very edge.
The society revolves around them....children and teens are talked about a lot. The merchandising merchants want to know what teens want, what music they want to hear; what TV shows they wish to see; what movies they will attend; what they will buy.
One would think that the church at least would put teens and children back into reality. But no. Since 1970 the church has also decided to be child centered. We have allowed teens to blackmail us. It goes like this:
"If you don't do it our way, then we won't come to church anymore."
This statemnt makes church leaders cringe and wet their pants in panic.
They will do ANYTHING to keep the "young people" in the church.
I say let them go. If we teach what we are supposed to teach in our youth groups (we don't have to be boring of course) then the Holy Spirit will draw the right teens to the church and Wow! We might even have a REAL youth revival.
We might have teens that really do what they say and not turn around during the week and then do something else. We might have teens and children who begin to really work out their problems.
This might send a message to the Christian parents that they too can regain their rule in the home, and, while perhaps considering what their child or teen wants, they will simply refuse to allow the child to have their own way and rule the family through intimidation adn blackmail.
When we raise children to think the world revolves around them, then when they become adults, they have a very difficult concept of God. God says the world revovles around His Son Jesus Christ. So, one god has to go. I bet you know which one.
Here is a poem I found in my stuff. I think it is great!
A Child's Bill of Rights
My son came home from school one day,with that smile on his face.
Watch me blow my Mom away, I'll put her in her place
Gues what I learned in Civics Two taught by Mr. Wright
It was all about the law today, THE CHILDREN'S BILL OF RIGHTS.
I don't have to clean my room or even cut my hair.
No one can tell me what to eat or choose the clothes I wear.
Freedom of speech is my Constitutional guarantee. It is my choice of what to read or watch on the T.V.
I have the freedom of religion, and no matter what you say,
I don't have to ask God for help, I don't have to kneel to pray.
I can also wear an earring in my ear or even peirce my nose.
I can have the Devil's number tattooed across my back.
Hey, If you ever spank me, I can charge you with assault.
I can back up my charges with the black and blue results.
Don't ever touch my body, It is for me to use
for all those hugs and kisses are a form a sex abuse.
Don't fill my head with morals like your mother did to you.
There's such a thing called mind control that's illegal too.
Mom, I have these children's rghts. You can't do a thing to me.
I'll just call the children's services, better known as C.S.D.
My very first impression was to toss him out the door, But here is a chance to teach a lesson for once and ever more.
I kind of mulled it over, but I didn't let it go.
This kid of mine doesn't realize, he is working with a pro.
The next day I took him shopping, much to his dismay.
I didn't buy him 501s or shirts designed by Nike.
I called and talked to C.S.D. They said they didn't care if I bought him Volume shoes, or a pair of Nike Airs.
I canceled out his apointment to test his driving skills.
I'd probably be dead right now, if only looks could kill.
I don't have time to stop and eat, get stuff for you to much,
I followed C.S.D.'s advice I bought you a big sack lunch.
So you say you're not so hungry, You can wait till dinner time.
I'm fixing liver and onions, a favorite dish of mine.
So, you want to get a movie to watch on the VCR.
Gosh! I sold that televison to buy tires for my car.
I also rented out your room, You don't really need a bed.
All I really have to do is put a roof over your head.
As long as I buy your clothes and all the food you eat.
I can keep your allowance and buy me something really neat.
I know you like the tacos after we have shopped all day.
Son, I have my bill of rights, they go into effect today.
Tuesday, July 27, 2004
Christian Youth.....Paragons of Virtue?
We are hearing a lot about the youth today. The problem is.....we never quite hear how the Christian youth are doing. Some say they are so wonderful that they are almost ready to lead in the next revival. But they said that about the youth of the 80's and then again the youth of the 90's. But the current revivals were ushered in by mostly Baby Boomers in their 40's and 50's...NOT the youth.
On the other hand, we are hearing from some quarters that almost all of the world's youth are out drinking, drugging and sexing.
What is problematic is when we mix up what the Christian youth are doing with what the world's youth are doing. Or, are they doing the same thing? Could it be that the majority of Christian youth are praising God on Sunday and (excuse my bluntness here) fornicating in the bushes on Monday?
I've been asking this same question for over 20 years now.
And, I never get any answers.
Does anyone out there really know what the Christian youth is up to these days?
To see what youth is doing (although the blog is vague about who these youth are--are all youth doing these things? Non-Christian youth? Christian youth?); see Michael Spencer's blog of July 20, 2004.
You can see Spencer's blog at:
Out of the Mouths of 16-Year Old Babes
On the other hand, we are hearing from some quarters that almost all of the world's youth are out drinking, drugging and sexing.
What is problematic is when we mix up what the Christian youth are doing with what the world's youth are doing. Or, are they doing the same thing? Could it be that the majority of Christian youth are praising God on Sunday and (excuse my bluntness here) fornicating in the bushes on Monday?
I've been asking this same question for over 20 years now.
And, I never get any answers.
Does anyone out there really know what the Christian youth is up to these days?
To see what youth is doing (although the blog is vague about who these youth are--are all youth doing these things? Non-Christian youth? Christian youth?); see Michael Spencer's blog of July 20, 2004.
You can see Spencer's blog at:
Out of the Mouths of 16-Year Old Babes
Monday, July 26, 2004
Them Big Words
We are being told in many churches today that we shouldn't use them BIG Bible words. In some churches they say the reason for this is because the words are so boring. And those churches do NOT wish to be boring.
In other churches, mainly Third Wave revival ones, they say that BIG words bring in religious spirits. And they don't want "religious spirits" in their churches.
It is vital that all Christians have as a foundation the BIG, BIG words-- justification, sanctification and propitiation.
The latter word simply means substitution. Jesus was our propitiation, or substitute, for us. He took our sin upon Himself.
Justification means that we are justified by what Christ did at the cross, not by what we do or did or think. God's wrath was toward us and so we need to be justified or made righteous.
Sanctification means what happens AFTER someone is born again and is justified. The Holy Spirit's job (not ours) is to bring you step by step into more holiness. That is true holiness. The false holiness people teach that we have to retain our salvation through our own efforts. But then they are really saying that one can lose their justification. Does that make sense?
I am amazed how many Christians today haven't a clue as to what these words mean, and even worse, the important implications of these words for their lives. Our churches have simply failed in this arena. I'm not sure which gospel many churches today are preaching--they sure aren't preachign the real one. How can people get born again when they are told just to accept God so He can solve their problems? They can't. In this context altar calls become a sham.
A few years ago the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (the Reformationist group) took a poll at the Christian Booksellers Convention. They said that most of the people there were Christian writers, publishers, bookstore owners, pastors and other Christians. The second question of their poll was this:
What does the word justification mean?
You couldn't believe some of the airhead answers. For example I remember this one: "Uh..I think it is when the police let you go."
Out of 200 people asked this question at that convention, only 5% answered even something within the ballpark definition of what it means Biblically. That is 10 out of 200 people...almost all Christians and many writers, publishers, etc.
Folks, I think we are in trouble...or as Doonesbury puts it--we are in deep doo doo.
In other churches, mainly Third Wave revival ones, they say that BIG words bring in religious spirits. And they don't want "religious spirits" in their churches.
It is vital that all Christians have as a foundation the BIG, BIG words-- justification, sanctification and propitiation.
The latter word simply means substitution. Jesus was our propitiation, or substitute, for us. He took our sin upon Himself.
Justification means that we are justified by what Christ did at the cross, not by what we do or did or think. God's wrath was toward us and so we need to be justified or made righteous.
Sanctification means what happens AFTER someone is born again and is justified. The Holy Spirit's job (not ours) is to bring you step by step into more holiness. That is true holiness. The false holiness people teach that we have to retain our salvation through our own efforts. But then they are really saying that one can lose their justification. Does that make sense?
I am amazed how many Christians today haven't a clue as to what these words mean, and even worse, the important implications of these words for their lives. Our churches have simply failed in this arena. I'm not sure which gospel many churches today are preaching--they sure aren't preachign the real one. How can people get born again when they are told just to accept God so He can solve their problems? They can't. In this context altar calls become a sham.
A few years ago the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (the Reformationist group) took a poll at the Christian Booksellers Convention. They said that most of the people there were Christian writers, publishers, bookstore owners, pastors and other Christians. The second question of their poll was this:
What does the word justification mean?
You couldn't believe some of the airhead answers. For example I remember this one: "Uh..I think it is when the police let you go."
Out of 200 people asked this question at that convention, only 5% answered even something within the ballpark definition of what it means Biblically. That is 10 out of 200 people...almost all Christians and many writers, publishers, etc.
Folks, I think we are in trouble...or as Doonesbury puts it--we are in deep doo doo.
Sunday, July 25, 2004
Next Level?
I hope you will read the "Next Level" posting at TotemtoTemple's blog.
This is simply the old "holiness" with a new twist. I owe Bob kudos since his piece has inspired me to write about the difference between justification and sanctification tomorrow. It's something a lot of Christians are getting mixed up these days.
This is simply the old "holiness" with a new twist. I owe Bob kudos since his piece has inspired me to write about the difference between justification and sanctification tomorrow. It's something a lot of Christians are getting mixed up these days.
Saturday, July 24, 2004
The True Revival
Have the Third Wavers believed a lie? Does Isaiah 28:15 pertain to them?
Is. 28:15-(NIV)"...for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood [Hebrew=false gods] our hiding place."
Are they hiding behind the lies and refuse to come out and be accountable? To be fair, at least two main Third Wavers have attempted to answer questions. They are John Arnott of the Toronto Airport Church in his book The Father's Blessing; and, Dr. Michael Brown of Brownsville Asembly of God in Pensacola, FL. He has written several treatises and at least one book answering spcifically Hank Hannegraf's allegations in his book, Counterfeit Revival (which I recommend by the way, especially the udated version). Where I part ways with Mr. Hanegraff is that he thinks the manifestations are group hsteria hypnosis. I think it is a diferent spirit, an occultic type which masquerades as the Holy Spirit. I've come to this conclusion after much prayer and rading and talking to people for 10 years. Of course I could be in error.
But with the exception of the above men, most of the Third Wavers are just plain mean toward those who would question. We are called terrible things--cessationists (which is ignorant since many questioners are within the Charismatic/Pentecostal fold themselves including me), people who have religious spirits, Jezebel spirits and so forth. And, the tone of their criticisms is not nice at all.
For the past 10 years I have tried to objectively study both with mind and spirit the Third Wave revival phenomenon. I even tried to attend the revival church near me but God stopped me three times. At that I had to wonder why. I was in a chat room with mostly Brownsville AG people for three years. I couldn't begin to tell you what I endured there, although I did meet a few very nice people, most of whom wrre seeing the problem and eventually left. And, like the revival, the chat room dwindled and I hear is closed now. I've been subscribed to the Elijah list, one of the main Third Wave prophetic lists for about three years; and, I've read books and websites both by the Third Wave leaders themselves and those who are appalled by it.
And my conclusion?
Well, I'm sure you know by now if you've read what I've written in the past few days. But let me show you a real revival church so eveyone can be clear as to what is different between a true one and a false one.
THE COMING REVIVAL WILL BE A QUIET ONE
At the end of 1974 my neighbor invited me to a Christmas program at a Pentecostal church where she had just gotten saved. I had been a Christian at that time for 11 years, having had a dramatic conversion experience in college. I really wasn't enthusiastic about going but I did. And, I ended up going there for almost 6 years. The church was well-known for being at that time what was called a neo-Pentecostal church and some even felt it was a Charismatic one (although the difference at that time was minimal).
First of all, the pastor was very submitted to his denomination. He wasn't trying to get away from it or buck it. The denomination backed him because he was doing nothing unBiblical.
Some weeks, but not every week, we had prophecies from the main prophets in our church (or at times visiting speakers). These were specific prophecies, not the mostly vague exhorations that you hear in the Third Wave revival churches. If someone other than these recognized mature prophets wanted to give a word, they could if they went up to the front quietly and submitted it to a pastor or elder. This way the church wasn't inundated with immature words that were passing for prophetic ones.
When this church prayed for healing, we saw a lot of results, especially in the area of cancer. There wasn't a lot of hype about healing with little result. The elders prayed mostly...not a special anointed one.
At times, groups prayer-walked around schools or neighborhoods and within weeks or months we always saw huge changes. We were given the names of our government leaders, both local, state and national so we could pray for them as God directed each of us. We were asked to fast and pray only one day a week for these leaders and other nations. We were not constantly asked to enter into 5-day, 10-day, or 40 day fasts as the Third Wave leaders are forever asking their people to do.
The pastor explained everything that happened in the church-from speaking in tongues to the uplifting of hands to praise God and more. He showed us Scripture in context for all of these things. He didn't make statements like "This is the Holy Spirit so don't question it," or, "God showed me this" (without any Scriptural contextual backup).
He did exegetical Bible studies that were revelationary as they should have been. He was in both OT and NT with the bulk of the time being in the NT (cotnrast this with the Third Wavers who are usually only in the OT). He explained culture and language meanings when they needed to be explained (i.e. the Greek/Hebrew). His teaching was Christ-centered.
There was not an evangelism group for at least the first two decades (Gasp!). The pastor understood that people needed time to grow first. There was no advertisement in the media except at the end of my stay there would be an ad in the paper at Easter. My pastor didn't criticise and act ugly toward those that criticised him. I saw people really get the emotional healing, deliverance and physically healing they needed, not always but usually. Usually, it wasn't a whamo bango thing. It took time. The church didn't have 100 ministries that people HAD to get involved in. They had some but the pastor made it clear that they were to get involved when they had come to the place that they felt they could.
And the numbers? When the pastor first started there were 10 people, almost half of those the pastor's family. By the way, he didn't start the church. He was sent there by his denomination which is Biblical. Bishopric/Apostolic authority should send pastors out. There is nowhere in the Bible where pastors start churches. This usually leads to trouble (specifically, too much control).
When I came 6 years later the church was up to 1500. When I left in 1980 the church was up to 3000. I went back in 1990 and the church was up to 8000. All of this was without hype and media and bragging and lies and deception and being nasty to critics.
Now..that is a revival!
Is. 28:15-(NIV)"...for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood [Hebrew=false gods] our hiding place."
Are they hiding behind the lies and refuse to come out and be accountable? To be fair, at least two main Third Wavers have attempted to answer questions. They are John Arnott of the Toronto Airport Church in his book The Father's Blessing; and, Dr. Michael Brown of Brownsville Asembly of God in Pensacola, FL. He has written several treatises and at least one book answering spcifically Hank Hannegraf's allegations in his book, Counterfeit Revival (which I recommend by the way, especially the udated version). Where I part ways with Mr. Hanegraff is that he thinks the manifestations are group hsteria hypnosis. I think it is a diferent spirit, an occultic type which masquerades as the Holy Spirit. I've come to this conclusion after much prayer and rading and talking to people for 10 years. Of course I could be in error.
But with the exception of the above men, most of the Third Wavers are just plain mean toward those who would question. We are called terrible things--cessationists (which is ignorant since many questioners are within the Charismatic/Pentecostal fold themselves including me), people who have religious spirits, Jezebel spirits and so forth. And, the tone of their criticisms is not nice at all.
For the past 10 years I have tried to objectively study both with mind and spirit the Third Wave revival phenomenon. I even tried to attend the revival church near me but God stopped me three times. At that I had to wonder why. I was in a chat room with mostly Brownsville AG people for three years. I couldn't begin to tell you what I endured there, although I did meet a few very nice people, most of whom wrre seeing the problem and eventually left. And, like the revival, the chat room dwindled and I hear is closed now. I've been subscribed to the Elijah list, one of the main Third Wave prophetic lists for about three years; and, I've read books and websites both by the Third Wave leaders themselves and those who are appalled by it.
And my conclusion?
Well, I'm sure you know by now if you've read what I've written in the past few days. But let me show you a real revival church so eveyone can be clear as to what is different between a true one and a false one.
THE COMING REVIVAL WILL BE A QUIET ONE
At the end of 1974 my neighbor invited me to a Christmas program at a Pentecostal church where she had just gotten saved. I had been a Christian at that time for 11 years, having had a dramatic conversion experience in college. I really wasn't enthusiastic about going but I did. And, I ended up going there for almost 6 years. The church was well-known for being at that time what was called a neo-Pentecostal church and some even felt it was a Charismatic one (although the difference at that time was minimal).
First of all, the pastor was very submitted to his denomination. He wasn't trying to get away from it or buck it. The denomination backed him because he was doing nothing unBiblical.
Some weeks, but not every week, we had prophecies from the main prophets in our church (or at times visiting speakers). These were specific prophecies, not the mostly vague exhorations that you hear in the Third Wave revival churches. If someone other than these recognized mature prophets wanted to give a word, they could if they went up to the front quietly and submitted it to a pastor or elder. This way the church wasn't inundated with immature words that were passing for prophetic ones.
When this church prayed for healing, we saw a lot of results, especially in the area of cancer. There wasn't a lot of hype about healing with little result. The elders prayed mostly...not a special anointed one.
At times, groups prayer-walked around schools or neighborhoods and within weeks or months we always saw huge changes. We were given the names of our government leaders, both local, state and national so we could pray for them as God directed each of us. We were asked to fast and pray only one day a week for these leaders and other nations. We were not constantly asked to enter into 5-day, 10-day, or 40 day fasts as the Third Wave leaders are forever asking their people to do.
The pastor explained everything that happened in the church-from speaking in tongues to the uplifting of hands to praise God and more. He showed us Scripture in context for all of these things. He didn't make statements like "This is the Holy Spirit so don't question it," or, "God showed me this" (without any Scriptural contextual backup).
He did exegetical Bible studies that were revelationary as they should have been. He was in both OT and NT with the bulk of the time being in the NT (cotnrast this with the Third Wavers who are usually only in the OT). He explained culture and language meanings when they needed to be explained (i.e. the Greek/Hebrew). His teaching was Christ-centered.
There was not an evangelism group for at least the first two decades (Gasp!). The pastor understood that people needed time to grow first. There was no advertisement in the media except at the end of my stay there would be an ad in the paper at Easter. My pastor didn't criticise and act ugly toward those that criticised him. I saw people really get the emotional healing, deliverance and physically healing they needed, not always but usually. Usually, it wasn't a whamo bango thing. It took time. The church didn't have 100 ministries that people HAD to get involved in. They had some but the pastor made it clear that they were to get involved when they had come to the place that they felt they could.
And the numbers? When the pastor first started there were 10 people, almost half of those the pastor's family. By the way, he didn't start the church. He was sent there by his denomination which is Biblical. Bishopric/Apostolic authority should send pastors out. There is nowhere in the Bible where pastors start churches. This usually leads to trouble (specifically, too much control).
When I came 6 years later the church was up to 1500. When I left in 1980 the church was up to 3000. I went back in 1990 and the church was up to 8000. All of this was without hype and media and bragging and lies and deception and being nasty to critics.
Now..that is a revival!
Friday, July 23, 2004
Lie #4
LIE #4
"Don't question this, it's the Holy Spirit's workings."
This is the mantra of Third Wave revival churches. But the problem with this reasoning is that it is cultic (see my website on control at: The Faustian Covenant
I wish the Third Wave leaders would read I John. There is a lot of wonderful stuff in there for them. In chapter 4, verse 1, for instance, it gives the opposite advice from what we read above from the Third Wavers.
(NIV)I John 4:1
"Dear friends" [he is writing to Christians]
"do not believe every spirit" [this requires a questioning process]
"but test the spirits to see whether they are from God" [the word test here means to scrutinize to see if something is actually genuine]
"because many false prophets have gone out into the world." [how well we know]
Well, tomorrow we are actually going to see a real revival church and how it differs from the Third Wave ones......so...stay tuned.....
"Don't question this, it's the Holy Spirit's workings."
This is the mantra of Third Wave revival churches. But the problem with this reasoning is that it is cultic (see my website on control at: The Faustian Covenant
I wish the Third Wave leaders would read I John. There is a lot of wonderful stuff in there for them. In chapter 4, verse 1, for instance, it gives the opposite advice from what we read above from the Third Wavers.
(NIV)I John 4:1
"Dear friends" [he is writing to Christians]
"do not believe every spirit" [this requires a questioning process]
"but test the spirits to see whether they are from God" [the word test here means to scrutinize to see if something is actually genuine]
"because many false prophets have gone out into the world." [how well we know]
Well, tomorrow we are actually going to see a real revival church and how it differs from the Third Wave ones......so...stay tuned.....
Thursday, July 22, 2004
Lie #3
LIE #3
The Third Wave revival prophets have a major problem. Their prophecies, when specific, don't have a very good accuracy rate.
First of all, many of the prophecies are vague. But those that are fairly specific do not always come to pass. And the amazing thing is what the prophets say themselves about this. They think it is fine. They say that a 60-70% accuracy rate is acceptable for what they call a New Testament prophet. They say that it would be virtually impossible to have a 100% accuracy rate as they did in the OT (or else they were killed).
But of course we must remember that "God is doing a new thing" so perhaps this is why God has suddenly changed the requirements for any prophet, OT OR NT.
I am talking about the Third Wave prophets that are fairly well-known within their own circles and even some to some outsiders. I've read hundreds of prophecies from these people and believe me, all is not well in prophecy-land.
The sad thing to me is that their followers rarely hear true prophecy.
And to the Charismatic/Pentecostal critics, this is just one more fuel stick for the fire for them to discredit prophecy as being relevant for today.
Well, stay tuned and it will only be a couple of days now when I present a REAL revival church example.
The Third Wave revival prophets have a major problem. Their prophecies, when specific, don't have a very good accuracy rate.
First of all, many of the prophecies are vague. But those that are fairly specific do not always come to pass. And the amazing thing is what the prophets say themselves about this. They think it is fine. They say that a 60-70% accuracy rate is acceptable for what they call a New Testament prophet. They say that it would be virtually impossible to have a 100% accuracy rate as they did in the OT (or else they were killed).
But of course we must remember that "God is doing a new thing" so perhaps this is why God has suddenly changed the requirements for any prophet, OT OR NT.
I am talking about the Third Wave prophets that are fairly well-known within their own circles and even some to some outsiders. I've read hundreds of prophecies from these people and believe me, all is not well in prophecy-land.
The sad thing to me is that their followers rarely hear true prophecy.
And to the Charismatic/Pentecostal critics, this is just one more fuel stick for the fire for them to discredit prophecy as being relevant for today.
Well, stay tuned and it will only be a couple of days now when I present a REAL revival church example.
Wednesday, July 21, 2004
Lie #2
LIE #2
Cali, Columbia; Almonga, Guatemala; Kiambu, Kenya; Hemet, California, USA.
These are the cities on the Transformations video. We are told that major changes happened after Third Wave Christians and churches pray-walked around those cities and took authority in the spiritual realm.
I'm not against prayer walking or taking spiritual authority. BUT, if nothing changes, then we need to say so.
I've read many reports of what is really going on after these places were prayed over. Except for Hemet, they got worse. Information from independent researchers and police departments in those areas tell us so.
Cali, Columbia? An orderly lawful city? Uh...no..I don't think so. How do I know? I read the newspaper. And that is where Third Wave followers fall down. They don't read. They simply believe whatever their mentors dish out to them.
The church I was talking about yesterday in my area has pray-walked around the schools in their city for at least ten years now. I know that for a fact. So, how are the schools faring? Well, last year they made the national news. They are out of control. Substitutes report that they have seen students having sex on science lab tables, gang bangers chasing each other down hallways, students constantly threatening teachers, etc. I heard these subs tell this myself on the radio.
In fact, 10 years ago, the schools there weren't this bad. Oh they were bad..but nothing like they are today. How bad are they? They are so bad, and this is true, that even the poorest minority parent will do anything to keep from sending their children to the public school.
Here is my question for the Third Wave? Why do you continue to exaggerate and at times even outright lie about these events? Why aren't you going back to God and asking what went wrong with your prayers? But no, you don't ever do that. You simply go on to the next place to take "authority." I pray every day that these people don't decide to come to my city for a prayer walk. If they do, heaven help us all in my city.
In a few days I will relate a church I attended in the 1970's that really was in revival. And, boy will you see the differences between that church and the ones we are hearing about today that are in "revival."
Cali, Columbia; Almonga, Guatemala; Kiambu, Kenya; Hemet, California, USA.
These are the cities on the Transformations video. We are told that major changes happened after Third Wave Christians and churches pray-walked around those cities and took authority in the spiritual realm.
I'm not against prayer walking or taking spiritual authority. BUT, if nothing changes, then we need to say so.
I've read many reports of what is really going on after these places were prayed over. Except for Hemet, they got worse. Information from independent researchers and police departments in those areas tell us so.
Cali, Columbia? An orderly lawful city? Uh...no..I don't think so. How do I know? I read the newspaper. And that is where Third Wave followers fall down. They don't read. They simply believe whatever their mentors dish out to them.
The church I was talking about yesterday in my area has pray-walked around the schools in their city for at least ten years now. I know that for a fact. So, how are the schools faring? Well, last year they made the national news. They are out of control. Substitutes report that they have seen students having sex on science lab tables, gang bangers chasing each other down hallways, students constantly threatening teachers, etc. I heard these subs tell this myself on the radio.
In fact, 10 years ago, the schools there weren't this bad. Oh they were bad..but nothing like they are today. How bad are they? They are so bad, and this is true, that even the poorest minority parent will do anything to keep from sending their children to the public school.
Here is my question for the Third Wave? Why do you continue to exaggerate and at times even outright lie about these events? Why aren't you going back to God and asking what went wrong with your prayers? But no, you don't ever do that. You simply go on to the next place to take "authority." I pray every day that these people don't decide to come to my city for a prayer walk. If they do, heaven help us all in my city.
In a few days I will relate a church I attended in the 1970's that really was in revival. And, boy will you see the differences between that church and the ones we are hearing about today that are in "revival."
Tuesday, July 20, 2004
Can't they just be honest?...Please?
I have many problems with the Third Wave revival. One is their exaggerations and at times just plain dishonesty.
LIE #1
One area that concerns me is their claim to having great revivals. Now I would think that would automatically mean church growth since revival to me is people getting born again as well as Christians geting renewed and wishing to affilaite with the renewal church. I'm not into numbers but I do know if a church is following God's Spirit fairly well, there WILL be growth...automatically.
But, when I look at pre-revival populations of congregations of these churches; and post-revival numbers, they are either the same or slightly more in most cases. Where is the huge numerical growth that is implied, or at times even outright declared?
I would like the revivalists to answer that.
One thing they say is that Christians come to be revived and then go back to their own church bringing back the revival to that church. OK. No problemo with that one. But, what about the minions of new Christians that come to Christ through the revival? Or, maybe there aren't that many new Christians? The revivalists say that hordes are coming to Christ through their churches. OK..show me the beef then.
The reason for this blog at this time is a meeting at the market....a woman I ran into that I used to know in another chruch. She now is in the big Third Wave revival church in our area. Now I live in the greater Los Angeles area with millions and my city alone has 200,000 people. The city this church resides in (that city is next to mine) has about 160,000 people. Yet she said this church has only around 350-400. I replied that I thought before the revival there were no more than 400 too. She replied sheepishly that yes, they are pryaing hard for revival.
WAIT! This church has been saying they have been in revival for the past 8 years. I'm not getting it. Is anyone else getting it?
LIE #1
One area that concerns me is their claim to having great revivals. Now I would think that would automatically mean church growth since revival to me is people getting born again as well as Christians geting renewed and wishing to affilaite with the renewal church. I'm not into numbers but I do know if a church is following God's Spirit fairly well, there WILL be growth...automatically.
But, when I look at pre-revival populations of congregations of these churches; and post-revival numbers, they are either the same or slightly more in most cases. Where is the huge numerical growth that is implied, or at times even outright declared?
I would like the revivalists to answer that.
One thing they say is that Christians come to be revived and then go back to their own church bringing back the revival to that church. OK. No problemo with that one. But, what about the minions of new Christians that come to Christ through the revival? Or, maybe there aren't that many new Christians? The revivalists say that hordes are coming to Christ through their churches. OK..show me the beef then.
The reason for this blog at this time is a meeting at the market....a woman I ran into that I used to know in another chruch. She now is in the big Third Wave revival church in our area. Now I live in the greater Los Angeles area with millions and my city alone has 200,000 people. The city this church resides in (that city is next to mine) has about 160,000 people. Yet she said this church has only around 350-400. I replied that I thought before the revival there were no more than 400 too. She replied sheepishly that yes, they are pryaing hard for revival.
WAIT! This church has been saying they have been in revival for the past 8 years. I'm not getting it. Is anyone else getting it?
Monday, July 19, 2004
Real Revival
I hope you will read today's blog over at
TotemtoTemple
He talks about revival as not being dependent necessarily on others, but upon ourselves. He points out that being dependent on the federal government passing laws, movies such as Mel Gibson's Passion, etc.
aren't really bringing in the results that are touted by those hyping these things.
A good read indeed.
TotemtoTemple
He talks about revival as not being dependent necessarily on others, but upon ourselves. He points out that being dependent on the federal government passing laws, movies such as Mel Gibson's Passion, etc.
aren't really bringing in the results that are touted by those hyping these things.
A good read indeed.
Saturday, July 17, 2004
A New Thing?
People might think I am obssessed with the Third Wave with all of their idiosyncrasies. While there are a few redeemable theologies in the revival theology, much of it is just plain scary. The reason I write so much about it is because it is spreading like wildfire...all around the world, not just the United States.
I could be as obssessed with open theology (or the open view as it is called in some cirlces); I could aslo write lots about universalism and especially Carleton Pearson.
However, these things are not catching on very much within Christendom.
The Third Wave revival is; especially among the young and other naive peoples.
I know many of you might not be a fan of the late Kenneth Hagin, but he said some very, very good things at times. In this month's issue of his ministrys' magazine, there is a teaching by him that first appeared in the same magazine in 1974.
Let me quote some of the passages from the article, as it is so timeless for today.
He is talking about Christian growth and how some Christians remain babies by what they "put into their mouths," spiritually that is.
He writes,
"Too many times, Christian people will feed on everything in the world except the right thing, and they become poisoned."
Later he writes,
"If I begin to read something that tears down Christian doctrines and principles, I'm finished with it right then."
I wish the revival followers would please question more and get their noses into the New Testament and stop listening to people who only teach out of the OT exclusively, which is what so many Third Wave teachers, prophets and apostles do.
Let's bring in Christ, the atonement and the cross.
I just read another Elijahlist piece by Bob Brasset. I think it is a shame he is following the Third Wave because he has probably what I consider the best teaching on healing in the Atonement I've seen. The other one is an old, old book by T.J. McCrossan, a former Presbyterian (who is now deceased).
Brasset writes that he recently went to Holland. (Actually, Bob, it is called the Netherlands now::)...but moving on......
Anyway, he was in the Hague, which by the way is a superb city, the seat of government of the Netherlands. He hooked up with some converted street people and had a mighty visitation of the Holy Spirit. OK..no problemo. But nowhere in his teaching did I hear about sin, repentence, atonement, etc. It was the same ole Third Wave theology .... God is good, loves you , has a plan for you, etc. etc.
Yes, but that is only 1/2 of the gospel. Does this remind anyone of the liberalism that evangelical churches got into around the turn of the 20th century? That is the theology they got into...not the Charismatic distinctive.
But then, as the head apostle always says...."God is doing a new thing."
I could be as obssessed with open theology (or the open view as it is called in some cirlces); I could aslo write lots about universalism and especially Carleton Pearson.
However, these things are not catching on very much within Christendom.
The Third Wave revival is; especially among the young and other naive peoples.
I know many of you might not be a fan of the late Kenneth Hagin, but he said some very, very good things at times. In this month's issue of his ministrys' magazine, there is a teaching by him that first appeared in the same magazine in 1974.
Let me quote some of the passages from the article, as it is so timeless for today.
He is talking about Christian growth and how some Christians remain babies by what they "put into their mouths," spiritually that is.
He writes,
"Too many times, Christian people will feed on everything in the world except the right thing, and they become poisoned."
Later he writes,
"If I begin to read something that tears down Christian doctrines and principles, I'm finished with it right then."
I wish the revival followers would please question more and get their noses into the New Testament and stop listening to people who only teach out of the OT exclusively, which is what so many Third Wave teachers, prophets and apostles do.
Let's bring in Christ, the atonement and the cross.
I just read another Elijahlist piece by Bob Brasset. I think it is a shame he is following the Third Wave because he has probably what I consider the best teaching on healing in the Atonement I've seen. The other one is an old, old book by T.J. McCrossan, a former Presbyterian (who is now deceased).
Brasset writes that he recently went to Holland. (Actually, Bob, it is called the Netherlands now::)...but moving on......
Anyway, he was in the Hague, which by the way is a superb city, the seat of government of the Netherlands. He hooked up with some converted street people and had a mighty visitation of the Holy Spirit. OK..no problemo. But nowhere in his teaching did I hear about sin, repentence, atonement, etc. It was the same ole Third Wave theology .... God is good, loves you , has a plan for you, etc. etc.
Yes, but that is only 1/2 of the gospel. Does this remind anyone of the liberalism that evangelical churches got into around the turn of the 20th century? That is the theology they got into...not the Charismatic distinctive.
But then, as the head apostle always says...."God is doing a new thing."
Nuclear apostles?
Well, the head apostle of the revival (Third Wave) movement has spoken once again. He says (along with many Word of Faith teachers) that there really IS an end-time distribution of wealth to certain Christians.
But for some reason, this distribution isn't happening because the angels who bring the money from the givers to those to whom God picks as receivers cannot go on as God had planned.
And the reason for this? Well, the apostle says that in 2001 the correct church government of apostles and prophets was put into place so that isn't the problem.
And, he further says that there is no dearth of givers. So that isn't the problem. And certainly there is no lack of receivers of this great wealth. So that isn't the problem.
So then, what is the prob? Well, there are not enough managers.
The apostle writes that there are four types of people who need to be involved with this great transfer of wealth. First there are of course the providers. But then there is a category called managers. We will get to what they do in a moment, that is if I can figure it out. Then there are the distributors. These are business minded people who know how to handle the funds.
The fourth class are the field marshalls. These are basically the apostles who oversee all of this. And, they are also the nuclear apostles.
I became confused to the difference between managers and distributors. Managers I guess figure out how the money can grow.,...or something like that. He also says that many of the distributors (but I guess not all) will be workplace apostles, not the nuclear ones.
In the past he has also taught that there are horizontal and vertical apostles.
Maybe you can figure all of this out.
I certainly can't.
But then I guess that is why he is the head apostle. He does understand this stuff.
If you care to see the entire "word," it is on the Elijah list site:
Elijahlist
But for some reason, this distribution isn't happening because the angels who bring the money from the givers to those to whom God picks as receivers cannot go on as God had planned.
And the reason for this? Well, the apostle says that in 2001 the correct church government of apostles and prophets was put into place so that isn't the problem.
And, he further says that there is no dearth of givers. So that isn't the problem. And certainly there is no lack of receivers of this great wealth. So that isn't the problem.
So then, what is the prob? Well, there are not enough managers.
The apostle writes that there are four types of people who need to be involved with this great transfer of wealth. First there are of course the providers. But then there is a category called managers. We will get to what they do in a moment, that is if I can figure it out. Then there are the distributors. These are business minded people who know how to handle the funds.
The fourth class are the field marshalls. These are basically the apostles who oversee all of this. And, they are also the nuclear apostles.
I became confused to the difference between managers and distributors. Managers I guess figure out how the money can grow.,...or something like that. He also says that many of the distributors (but I guess not all) will be workplace apostles, not the nuclear ones.
In the past he has also taught that there are horizontal and vertical apostles.
Maybe you can figure all of this out.
I certainly can't.
But then I guess that is why he is the head apostle. He does understand this stuff.
If you care to see the entire "word," it is on the Elijah list site:
Elijahlist
Wednesday, July 14, 2004
All About the Christian Right
I recommend highly that you read the several blogs in July at the Jollyblooger blog. He is really dissecting the Christian Right from their history to their rationale. An excellent series IMO.
You can find the latest installment here:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/915691
You can find the latest installment here:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/915691
Monday, July 12, 2004
Who We Americans Are
David Brooks is one of the few conservative journalists who works for the largely liberal New York Times.
He is one of my favorite authors; the one who wrote another book about bobos in America. I won't tell you who bobos are...I'll let you research it.
(hint: amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, etc. have descriptions of books).
Here are some very interesting statistics about America from his new book 'On Paradise Drive.' It explains why perhaps the world is having trouble with us.
There are 32 Lutheran denominations, 36 Methodist, 37 Episcopal and 241 Pentecostal in America; and those are just the beginning of the Protestant ones.
15% of American households earn over $100,000 a year and 7 million households have a net worth over a million
40% consider themselves to be evangelical Christians
During the twentieth century the population of France increased by 52%, the population of the UK by 42 and the population of the United States by 270%.
46% of Americans moved between 1995 and 2000.
58% of Americans say belief in God is very important in their lives compared to 12% of the French and 19% of the British.
86% of Americans believe in heaven compared to 43% of Germans.
80% of Americans belong to some sort of voluntary association compared to about 36% of Italians and Japanese.
33% of Americans do unpaid religious work while 5% of French and 6% of British do that work.
75% of Americans make charitable contributions.
The average American donates $1100 a year to charity and evangelicals average $3600 per year
57% of Americans eat out in a given week compared to 10% of the Germans and 12% of the French.
The American gross product is 30% greater than that of Germans or Japanese.
Americans spend $440 billion on lawn care every year that is more than the revenues of the government of India.
The average American spends $2000 a year in restaurants.
The average American woman between the ages of 16 and 70 has 7 pairs of jeans in their closet.
American homes are the largest in the world with an average of 718 sq. ft compared to:
Australia which comes in second with 544 sq. ft.; Canada has 442 sq. ft; Holland has 256; and Japan has 170.
America has 600 certified pet chiropractors.
Households with a college degree average $72,000 a year which is richer than 95% of the people on the planet and richer than 99.99% of the people who have ever lived.
America spends more on defense than the next 15 nations combined.
He is one of my favorite authors; the one who wrote another book about bobos in America. I won't tell you who bobos are...I'll let you research it.
(hint: amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, etc. have descriptions of books).
Here are some very interesting statistics about America from his new book 'On Paradise Drive.' It explains why perhaps the world is having trouble with us.
There are 32 Lutheran denominations, 36 Methodist, 37 Episcopal and 241 Pentecostal in America; and those are just the beginning of the Protestant ones.
15% of American households earn over $100,000 a year and 7 million households have a net worth over a million
40% consider themselves to be evangelical Christians
During the twentieth century the population of France increased by 52%, the population of the UK by 42 and the population of the United States by 270%.
46% of Americans moved between 1995 and 2000.
58% of Americans say belief in God is very important in their lives compared to 12% of the French and 19% of the British.
86% of Americans believe in heaven compared to 43% of Germans.
80% of Americans belong to some sort of voluntary association compared to about 36% of Italians and Japanese.
33% of Americans do unpaid religious work while 5% of French and 6% of British do that work.
75% of Americans make charitable contributions.
The average American donates $1100 a year to charity and evangelicals average $3600 per year
57% of Americans eat out in a given week compared to 10% of the Germans and 12% of the French.
The American gross product is 30% greater than that of Germans or Japanese.
Americans spend $440 billion on lawn care every year that is more than the revenues of the government of India.
The average American spends $2000 a year in restaurants.
The average American woman between the ages of 16 and 70 has 7 pairs of jeans in their closet.
American homes are the largest in the world with an average of 718 sq. ft compared to:
Australia which comes in second with 544 sq. ft.; Canada has 442 sq. ft; Holland has 256; and Japan has 170.
America has 600 certified pet chiropractors.
Households with a college degree average $72,000 a year which is richer than 95% of the people on the planet and richer than 99.99% of the people who have ever lived.
America spends more on defense than the next 15 nations combined.
Sunday, July 11, 2004
The Changing Face of Evangelicalism
Evangelicalism is changing...but not for the better.
Two blog posts I've read recently really point this out.
At Michael Spencer's blog he talks about how the Christian youth of today just are not hearing the true message and what that might mean in another 20 years or so.
Find the post entitled, "Is the End of Evangelicalism closer than we think?"
The other one is at The Jollyblogger. Scroll down to the post entitled "100% For Jesus." It represents another wrong message in evangelical-land.
Tell me what you think of these two articles.
Two blog posts I've read recently really point this out.
At Michael Spencer's blog he talks about how the Christian youth of today just are not hearing the true message and what that might mean in another 20 years or so.
Find the post entitled, "Is the End of Evangelicalism closer than we think?"
The other one is at The Jollyblogger. Scroll down to the post entitled "100% For Jesus." It represents another wrong message in evangelical-land.
Tell me what you think of these two articles.
Saturday, July 10, 2004
Another Two Megafests
While the Christian crowd (mostly Charismatic/Pentecostal sadly) here in America are busy "manipulating" people for money----from "if you give me such and such amount you will receive a greater abundance" to "I have the great anointing and if you give to my ministry your finances will increase greatly" to "God has promised to bless all of our partners who give $100 or more (or $1000 or$10,000 or....); in Africa, the Anglican churches (read that Episcopalian here in the U.S.) have refused to accept any money from the Episcopalian church in America or England IF they don't stop condoning homosexuality and homosexuals being ordained in the Anglican communion. And they badly need the money. How is that for sacrificing for one's beliefs. Or in this case, I should say ones' beliefs.
They are ready to pull out as are many other Episcopalian and Anglican churches elsewhere into the Confessing Movement.
In fact, If the Presbyterians (PCUSA that is) succumb to the ordination of homosexuals/lesbians (every summer when theh General Assembly fo the PCUSA meets, we all hold our breath), then watch the exodus of many PCUSA churches, including mine I hope, into the Confessing movement. Then the Lutherans hopefully will follow.....into the Confessing movement that is.
I really do not understand why all of these churches just don't do that now. That would make the Confessing Movement a HUGE denomination and the ones they left in shambles. However, if each denomination is just going to create their own Confessing Movement, I think that will be counterproductive unless there might be a large umbrella over all of them. Now that might work.
Charisma magazine has the article by Scott Hinkle about the African churches. It probably won't be online until next month as it is in this month's (July 2004) issue.
If you wish to read about the Confessing movement, there are three main ones right now--Episcopalian/Anglican, Presbyterian, and United Methodist.
Use a search engine and type in "Confessing movement" to see information about these three streams.
They are ready to pull out as are many other Episcopalian and Anglican churches elsewhere into the Confessing Movement.
In fact, If the Presbyterians (PCUSA that is) succumb to the ordination of homosexuals/lesbians (every summer when theh General Assembly fo the PCUSA meets, we all hold our breath), then watch the exodus of many PCUSA churches, including mine I hope, into the Confessing movement. Then the Lutherans hopefully will follow.....into the Confessing movement that is.
I really do not understand why all of these churches just don't do that now. That would make the Confessing Movement a HUGE denomination and the ones they left in shambles. However, if each denomination is just going to create their own Confessing Movement, I think that will be counterproductive unless there might be a large umbrella over all of them. Now that might work.
Charisma magazine has the article by Scott Hinkle about the African churches. It probably won't be online until next month as it is in this month's (July 2004) issue.
If you wish to read about the Confessing movement, there are three main ones right now--Episcopalian/Anglican, Presbyterian, and United Methodist.
Use a search engine and type in "Confessing movement" to see information about these three streams.
Wednesday, July 07, 2004
More on Healing--Another View
The article in Charisma magazine that follows the McNutt one presents a somewhat different view.
It is entitled "When Healing Doesn't Come" and is written by a writer for the New York News Service who had some serious physical problems in midlife.
As someone who believed in healing, he of course felt he would be healed soon. However, that wasn't the case. The part of the article that was of interest to me was what some Christian so-called "friends" of his said to him over the course of his physical struggles.
People would say things like "you must have unconfesed sins," you don't have enough faith to receive healing," you haven't confessed enough Scripture to receive the healing," etc.
I have a suggestion to those people. Have you really sat down before God and asked Him WHY he is sick? Hae you asked God to show you HOW to pray? Have you asked God if there are any spiritual roots that YOU can pray about to fix this problem for him?
Oh you haven't?
Well then........I guess you might want to shutteth thine mouth....and get going on the above suggestions.
It is entitled "When Healing Doesn't Come" and is written by a writer for the New York News Service who had some serious physical problems in midlife.
As someone who believed in healing, he of course felt he would be healed soon. However, that wasn't the case. The part of the article that was of interest to me was what some Christian so-called "friends" of his said to him over the course of his physical struggles.
People would say things like "you must have unconfesed sins," you don't have enough faith to receive healing," you haven't confessed enough Scripture to receive the healing," etc.
I have a suggestion to those people. Have you really sat down before God and asked Him WHY he is sick? Hae you asked God to show you HOW to pray? Have you asked God if there are any spiritual roots that YOU can pray about to fix this problem for him?
Oh you haven't?
Well then........I guess you might want to shutteth thine mouth....and get going on the above suggestions.
Tuesday, July 06, 2004
The Holiness Movement Strikes Again
Well, Charles Finney is winning. Or maybe, it is the Wesley Brothers. Poor Jonathan Edwards had to go through it. Now today, we are going through it--AGAIN.
Edwards' revival was being hijacked by Wesleyans while Edwards was trying to keep the revival going but also toeing the Reformist theological line.
And then there is Finney. Where do you think we got those altar calls from? And the Christian seeker movement? In fact, it was Finney who called the unrepentent "seekers."
He said you need do anything (yes read that "anything") to get people to the altar--any emotionalism--any thing.
Once people get to the altar, then you work on them (emotionally of course) to get saved.
We see this in action today with the evangelist at one of the big Third Wave revival churches when he gave the "altar call." Here is how it went:
"You up there--yes you--the man in the green shirt--come down right now--you there...come here right now!!"
This is how far we've slunk down in the holiness mire.
And what happens after they get "saved?"
Well, then the fun really begins. They must do certain things to retain their salvation and "feel close to God."
In the last part of the nineteenth century, after the Finney revivals; and in the first part of the twentieth century, we had a holiness "don't do" legalism. Don't smoke, don't dance, don't play cards and so forth.
Today's new Third Wave revival holiness crowd has a new "do this" type of legalism. Do observe the feasts, do fast and pray, do chase God and so on.
One of the Third Wave theologian gurus, Dr. Michael Brown, admitted in an article a few years ago that yes, it is a holiness movement, but a new type of holiness movement. This goes into the regular Third Wave mantra of "God is doing a new thing." Everything is new, new, new.
What is problematic with this is that it isn't new. It is as old as the hills.
Edwards' revival was being hijacked by Wesleyans while Edwards was trying to keep the revival going but also toeing the Reformist theological line.
And then there is Finney. Where do you think we got those altar calls from? And the Christian seeker movement? In fact, it was Finney who called the unrepentent "seekers."
He said you need do anything (yes read that "anything") to get people to the altar--any emotionalism--any thing.
Once people get to the altar, then you work on them (emotionally of course) to get saved.
We see this in action today with the evangelist at one of the big Third Wave revival churches when he gave the "altar call." Here is how it went:
"You up there--yes you--the man in the green shirt--come down right now--you there...come here right now!!"
This is how far we've slunk down in the holiness mire.
And what happens after they get "saved?"
Well, then the fun really begins. They must do certain things to retain their salvation and "feel close to God."
In the last part of the nineteenth century, after the Finney revivals; and in the first part of the twentieth century, we had a holiness "don't do" legalism. Don't smoke, don't dance, don't play cards and so forth.
Today's new Third Wave revival holiness crowd has a new "do this" type of legalism. Do observe the feasts, do fast and pray, do chase God and so on.
One of the Third Wave theologian gurus, Dr. Michael Brown, admitted in an article a few years ago that yes, it is a holiness movement, but a new type of holiness movement. This goes into the regular Third Wave mantra of "God is doing a new thing." Everything is new, new, new.
What is problematic with this is that it isn't new. It is as old as the hills.
The Many Aspects of Healing
I have always had trouble wth the so-called Catholic Charismtic movement. It is confusing to me. But that is for another post.
The one leader in the 70's Catholic Charismatic movement that I did not have any confusion about was Fr. Francis Mcnutt. He is the priest who brought the theology of healing to the Catholics as well as to many mainline Protestants. I heard him preach in 1977 in Kansas City, MO at the very first Charismaic Renewal Conference when all denominations including Catholics met together for the first time since the Reformation. All of these people were from the Pentecostal/Charismatic stream however. Presbyterian Charismatics, Episcopalian Charismatics, Catholic Charismatics, Assemblies of God, Foursquare, etc. It was really amazing. 70,000 of us sat in Arrowhead stadium each night (after seminars in the mornings and afternoons) worshipping God together and hearing from the great leaders of the Charismatic/Pentecostal streams of that day. There were hordes of nuns and priests (nuns wtill wore habits then)..it was strange to say the least.
Unfortuantely, the promise of that Charismatic movement went horribly astray in the years afterward (Vineyard anyone?)
Fr. McNutt is no long Father. He married in 1980 and was promptly defrocked. He became an Episcopalian and today is still healing and teaching healing, both physcial and emotional with his wife Judith, a former psychologist.
In this month's Charisma magazine there is a very fine article about McNutt and his wife and their ministry.
As a Word of Faith (kind of) Reformed (as in Reformation) neo-Pentecostal (think of a Foursquare Presbyterian with some of Kenneth Hagin thrown in and you will have me pegged), I believe in healing in the Atonement. In other words, unlike the Third Wavers, who believe in a transferrence through anointed people, I believe healing was acc��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
The one leader in the 70's Catholic Charismatic movement that I did not have any confusion about was Fr. Francis Mcnutt. He is the priest who brought the theology of healing to the Catholics as well as to many mainline Protestants. I heard him preach in 1977 in Kansas City, MO at the very first Charismaic Renewal Conference when all denominations including Catholics met together for the first time since the Reformation. All of these people were from the Pentecostal/Charismatic stream however. Presbyterian Charismatics, Episcopalian Charismatics, Catholic Charismatics, Assemblies of God, Foursquare, etc. It was really amazing. 70,000 of us sat in Arrowhead stadium each night (after seminars in the mornings and afternoons) worshipping God together and hearing from the great leaders of the Charismatic/Pentecostal streams of that day. There were hordes of nuns and priests (nuns wtill wore habits then)..it was strange to say the least.
Unfortuantely, the promise of that Charismatic movement went horribly astray in the years afterward (Vineyard anyone?)
Fr. McNutt is no long Father. He married in 1980 and was promptly defrocked. He became an Episcopalian and today is still healing and teaching healing, both physcial and emotional with his wife Judith, a former psychologist.
In this month's Charisma magazine there is a very fine article about McNutt and his wife and their ministry.
As a Word of Faith (kind of) Reformed (as in Reformation) neo-Pentecostal (think of a Foursquare Presbyterian with some of Kenneth Hagin thrown in and you will have me pegged), I believe in healing in the Atonement. In other words, unlike the Third Wavers, who believe in a transferrence through anointed people, I believe healing was acc��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
The Many Aspects of Healing
I have always had trouble wth the so-called Catholic Charismtic movement. It is confusing to me. But that is for another post.
The one leader in the 70's Catholic Charismatic movement that I did not have any confusion about was Fr. Francis Mcnutt. He is the priest who brought the theology of healing to the Catholics as well as to many mainline Protestants. I heard him preach in 1977 in Kansas City, MO at the very first Charismaic Renewal Conference when all denominations including Catholics met together for the first time since the Reformation. All of these people were from the Pentecostal/Charismatic stream however. Presbyterian Charismatics, Episcopalian Charismatics, Catholic Charismatics, Assemblies of God, Foursquare, etc. It was really amazing. 70,000 of us sat in Arrowhead stadium each night (after seminars in the mornings and afternoons) worshipping God together and hearing from the great leaders of the Charismatic/Pentecostal streams of that day. There were hordes of nuns and priests (nuns wtill wore habits then)..it was strange to say the least.
Unfortuantely, the promise of that Charismatic movement went horribly astray in the years afterward (Vineyard anyone?)
Fr. McNutt is no long Father. He married in 1980 and was promptly defrocked. He became an Episcopalian and today is still healing and teaching healing, both physcial and emotional with his wife Judith, a former psychologist.
In this month's Charisma magazine there is a very fine article about McNutt and his wife and their ministry.
As a Word of Faith (kind of) Reformed (as in Reformation) neo-Pentecostal (think of a Foursquare Presbyterian with some of Kenneth Hagin thrown in and you will have me pegged), I believe in healing in the Atonement. In other words, unlike the Third Wavers, who believe in a transferrence through anointed people, I believe healing was accomplished at the cross BY Jesus Christ. Whether someone administers healing as a faith touchpoint or not is up to the sick person. But that is not needed.
So much for healing prophets and evangelists.
Well, now back to McNutt. In the article, he presents four principles of healing prayer. I think these are excellent and so I will pass them on to you.
1. Prayer requires discernment.
2. Healing requires time.
3. Emotions need healing
4. Demons are real
Sadly, so many pastors and healers today violate numbers 1,2 and 3 and sometimes go way overboard on #4.
Mcnutt is my man because he says that we must always focus on Christ, NOT demons or our power or anything else.
Sadly, many today don't focus on Christ or even talk about Him much. They focus on....................THEMSELVES!
Maybe that is why people are not receiving healing as much as they could.
Do ya think maybe?
The one leader in the 70's Catholic Charismatic movement that I did not have any confusion about was Fr. Francis Mcnutt. He is the priest who brought the theology of healing to the Catholics as well as to many mainline Protestants. I heard him preach in 1977 in Kansas City, MO at the very first Charismaic Renewal Conference when all denominations including Catholics met together for the first time since the Reformation. All of these people were from the Pentecostal/Charismatic stream however. Presbyterian Charismatics, Episcopalian Charismatics, Catholic Charismatics, Assemblies of God, Foursquare, etc. It was really amazing. 70,000 of us sat in Arrowhead stadium each night (after seminars in the mornings and afternoons) worshipping God together and hearing from the great leaders of the Charismatic/Pentecostal streams of that day. There were hordes of nuns and priests (nuns wtill wore habits then)..it was strange to say the least.
Unfortuantely, the promise of that Charismatic movement went horribly astray in the years afterward (Vineyard anyone?)
Fr. McNutt is no long Father. He married in 1980 and was promptly defrocked. He became an Episcopalian and today is still healing and teaching healing, both physcial and emotional with his wife Judith, a former psychologist.
In this month's Charisma magazine there is a very fine article about McNutt and his wife and their ministry.
As a Word of Faith (kind of) Reformed (as in Reformation) neo-Pentecostal (think of a Foursquare Presbyterian with some of Kenneth Hagin thrown in and you will have me pegged), I believe in healing in the Atonement. In other words, unlike the Third Wavers, who believe in a transferrence through anointed people, I believe healing was accomplished at the cross BY Jesus Christ. Whether someone administers healing as a faith touchpoint or not is up to the sick person. But that is not needed.
So much for healing prophets and evangelists.
Well, now back to McNutt. In the article, he presents four principles of healing prayer. I think these are excellent and so I will pass them on to you.
1. Prayer requires discernment.
2. Healing requires time.
3. Emotions need healing
4. Demons are real
Sadly, so many pastors and healers today violate numbers 1,2 and 3 and sometimes go way overboard on #4.
Mcnutt is my man because he says that we must always focus on Christ, NOT demons or our power or anything else.
Sadly, many today don't focus on Christ or even talk about Him much. They focus on....................THEMSELVES!
Maybe that is why people are not receiving healing as much as they could.
Do ya think maybe?
Monday, July 05, 2004
The 48 Laws
I was tooling around in Amazon.com one day to see what people were reading. I came across a very interesting title that many people had ordered. Luckily I found it at my local library and am now currently reading this book entitled, The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene. Mr. Greene must be a very well-read individual historically. I say this because of what he has done in this book.
I have studied the controller for about 25 years now (as well as the codependent). It looks as if Mr. Greene has done the same. Each chapter of the book is a different "law" which has been derived from historical events and writers such as Machievelli.
My eye immediately fell upon Law 27 which is:
"Play on People's Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following."
He lists five steps to achieve this:
1. Keep it vague; keep it simple
2. Emphasize the Visual and the Sensual over the Intellectual
3. Borrow the forms of organized religion to structure the group.
4. Disguise your source of income.
5. Set up an Us-versus-Them dynamic
Does this remind anybody of alot of current churches and parachurch ministry groups?
I have studied the controller for about 25 years now (as well as the codependent). It looks as if Mr. Greene has done the same. Each chapter of the book is a different "law" which has been derived from historical events and writers such as Machievelli.
My eye immediately fell upon Law 27 which is:
"Play on People's Need to Believe to Create a Cultlike Following."
He lists five steps to achieve this:
1. Keep it vague; keep it simple
2. Emphasize the Visual and the Sensual over the Intellectual
3. Borrow the forms of organized religion to structure the group.
4. Disguise your source of income.
5. Set up an Us-versus-Them dynamic
Does this remind anybody of alot of current churches and parachurch ministry groups?
Saturday, July 03, 2004
What exactly is the Third Wave?
If you've heard of what happened at the Toronto Airport Vineyard (the Vineyard dumped them so now it is the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship); and, if you've heard what happened in Pensacola, Florida at the Brownsville Asembly of God on Father's Day a few years ago; and if you heard what happened in the Alpha Course originator church, Holy Trinity Brompton Anglican Church in London, UK, you already know something about the Thrid Wave revivals.
They are essentially a rehash of of the latter rain theology-philosophy of modern day apostles and prophets; signs and wonders that are NOT mentioned in the Bible, either Old nor New Testaments because "God is doing a new thing."
Sadly, many of these people do not realize that when God tells the Israelites at times that He is doing a new thing, it really is an old thing. It is just new for them.
Hebrews 13:8 says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and foever."
So, to go outside what God has ever done (I have never heard historically of God giving people gold teeth for example) might be treading on dangerous ground.
Many of the the revivalists have this mantra:
"Don't question this. It's the Holy Spirit. How do we know? Because we, the anointed ones say so."
In the coming weeks we will find out who it is exactly that follows this "revival;" who these "anointed" ones are and who placed them into their positions; and, discuss if there are apostles and prophets today, and if so, are these ones of the Third Wave the real deal? Or are there other more real ones?
We will also find out the friction and division in the Assemblies of God over this.
Stay tune and hang on to your seats as we examine the........
THIRD WAVE REVIVALS.
They are essentially a rehash of of the latter rain theology-philosophy of modern day apostles and prophets; signs and wonders that are NOT mentioned in the Bible, either Old nor New Testaments because "God is doing a new thing."
Sadly, many of these people do not realize that when God tells the Israelites at times that He is doing a new thing, it really is an old thing. It is just new for them.
Hebrews 13:8 says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and foever."
So, to go outside what God has ever done (I have never heard historically of God giving people gold teeth for example) might be treading on dangerous ground.
Many of the the revivalists have this mantra:
"Don't question this. It's the Holy Spirit. How do we know? Because we, the anointed ones say so."
In the coming weeks we will find out who it is exactly that follows this "revival;" who these "anointed" ones are and who placed them into their positions; and, discuss if there are apostles and prophets today, and if so, are these ones of the Third Wave the real deal? Or are there other more real ones?
We will also find out the friction and division in the Assemblies of God over this.
Stay tune and hang on to your seats as we examine the........
THIRD WAVE REVIVALS.
Thursday, July 01, 2004
More Megafests
Interrupting our discussion of Third Wavism for a moment for another Megafest comparison.
Charismanews reports that TBN (the "Christian" station) is producing a new show along the lines of American idol. Only, this will be called Christian Idol.
Meanwhile, in northern Iran, a Protestant pastor and his family was arrested and is being jailed indefinitely without any charges presented; without any lawyer called.
Charismanews reports that TBN (the "Christian" station) is producing a new show along the lines of American idol. Only, this will be called Christian Idol.
Meanwhile, in northern Iran, a Protestant pastor and his family was arrested and is being jailed indefinitely without any charges presented; without any lawyer called.
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