The Thrill of the Chase

Sometimes the Internet monk drives me nuts because of my disagreement with his post, and sometimes it's the best of the posts I've read all week. It's rarely anything in-between. This post is one of those that baffles me.

Read this excerpt from that post:
) I bitterly resent all efforts of one Christian to evangelize another

It is a matter of integrity that has deep roots in my own understanding of what it means to belong to Jesus Christ. I have refused to do this consistently. In my ministry I have been criticized continually for not evangelizing Catholics. I will never do so, and I will never respond to being evangelized with appreciation.

I just have one question - wonder if they ask about my story? I should be mum and say nada?

I think evangelism is thrilling--like a TV drama. You ask God to bring people to you, and you to people, to talk about each others' life stories. Then you pray and see how the Holy Spirit is moving in the ongoing relationship. That, my friends, is the thrill of the chase. It's also relational evangelism instead of the former years' hit-and-run that we all were "required" to do.

Now for a reality check. Am I able to do this often? Sadly, no. But I do go to various classes and groups consisting of non-Christians. I did get to witness to a Jewish lady in one of my classes as she asked why in the world, when I was an atheist in college, I would become an evangelical Christian? But she was pretty open. Oh, when I say classes, I mean free classes my city has for seniors. They are on a junior college level and are sponsored by the state and our local junior community college.

And that process is the thrill of the chase..through prayer.

U.S. Church Attendance vs. European Countries

I thought this was interesting. But I'm wondering how long the United States data it will hold. Today, on his radio show, Bill O'Reilly (who is a Catholic) made the statement that it might not be too long before Christians will be the ones who have their rights taken away. I told you that the Patriot Act was a disaster and would bite the Christian community someday. Well, we'll see what happens. Now for the intersting data for today's post:

Percentage of people going to church in various European countries:

US-50%

Between 20 and 35%
Italy
Potugal
Spain
Austria
Belgium

Less than 20%
West Germany
United Kingdom
Netherlands

Less than 10%
France

Finland
Sweden
Denmark

The People Connection-Lost?

"One married woman in her early thirties says, "I didn't even realize our next-door neighbors went to our church. We'd been there for almost three years before we met them."

(Source: Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam)

There are a few out there, including bloggers such as Dan Edelen at Cerulean Sanctum, who from time to time bring up the state of hospitality, friendliness and care in our evangelical churches. The above quote isn't unusual here in Southern California. The reason eludes me but some have thought it might have to do with the transiency here. In other words, people her move a lot. I've had friends coming from other areas of the country to live here and they really have trouble connecting to Christians here, but connecting to non-Christians doesn't seem as difficult. I've lived here all my life and I can testify that it IS difficult. Especially for single folks.

And now, it seems, many areas in the country are reflecting this Calfiornia trend. This isn't good news for Christians. So, what is my evaluation on this dilemma? In previous posts I've argued passionately for geographical homegroups started and maintained by churches and led by elders or those on that level from the church (that way, the elders could actually get to know people in their church--GASP!). The problem with just starting "groups," is, there is little diversity. I've found that God LOVES diversity. I'm not talking just about racial diversity. I'm talking about marrieds and singles together (GASP!); young, middle aged, old and children together; those physically and perhaps even deveopmentally disabled together; those from various social econmic and educational levels together; and so forth. But most churches just don't have the courage IMO to buck the "clique" trend. They allow their members to go to any group they like. And guess where they end up? With people just like themselves. But this circumvents and frustrates God's will stated very well in Proverbs 27:17, As Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. But first, you have to get friends. And sadly, especially for those who aren't married - be it never married, separated, divorced or widowed - it's darn hard to find friends--in church that is. And these days, I am hearing that even married Christians are having trouble connecting.

Maybe that is one of the reasons why few young adults 18-35 go to church anymore. Most of them, according to stats, are single. Do ya think maybe?

Has Our Society "Evolved?"

Headlines:

Bibles Dropped from Some Hotel Chains—Replaced with "One Night Stand" Kits - Hotels provide "intimacy kits" with condoms in the minibar, while New York's Mercer Hotel supplies a free condom in each bathroom.

In the rooms of Manhattan's trendy Soho Grand Hotel guests can enjoy an eclectic selection of underground music, iPod docking stations, flat-screen TVs and even the living company of a complimentary goldfish. But, alas, the word of God is nowhere to be found. Unlike traditional hotels, the 10-year-old boutique has never put Bibles in its guest rooms, because "society evolves," says hotel spokeswoman Lori DeBlois. Providing Bibles would mean the hotel "would have to take care of every guest's belief."

The Emergents and Postmodern Philosophy - Part 5

Emergents fairly understand the postmodern generation and ask the right questions. And, some of HOW they do things are alright too. But it's the message, or I should say the non-message they preach, that concerns me.

Here is what the emergents do understand. What many people, including church leaders, do not understand, is the postmodern generational outlook is not simply a generational change. It is much more with this young adult generation because it's a philosophical change too - after 400 years. For 400 years, approximately from around the late 16th century until around the millennium (2000), society was organized around left-brained rationality and reasoning. But now there is another big shift over to the right brain. So, we have two factors here - a generational change AND a philosophical change. In the last several posts, I've tried to show some of this philosophical change and how it is affecting even young adult Christians. But the main change to me is a shift from left-brain thinking over to right-brain thinking now in our society. A recent major book by Daniel Pink, A Whole New Mind, presents this concept. Pink says that workers now need to know six major concepts, all of which are more right-brain oriented. These six concepts are,


1. Design
It is no longer sufficient to create a product or service or experience. It must be aesthetically pleasing and innovative and emotionally satisfying and pleasing.

2. Story
It’s not enough to have facts and an argument. A story (narrative) can be very compelling and persuasive in the new era.

3. Symphony
Specialization alone will not fly in the new era. Workers will need to synthesize concepts together. Seeing the big picture, crossing boundaries, thinking outside the box.

4. Empathy
Logic won’t alone do it in the new era. Workers will need to empathize and understand consumers.

5. Play
In the Conceptual Age play and humor is becoming just as important as work at the workplace.

6. Meaning
Because people have more leisure time thanks to advancing technology, they are looking for products that add or interpret meaning for their lives.


To produce these workers, schools need to be more right-brained in their orientation and presentations. However, that doesn't mean we ditch left-brained thinking. In fact, it would be perfect IMO to have a bilateral approach. That means a half-way point between left and right brain thinking.

Left brain thinking __Bilateral thinking__Right brain thinking

Let's look at the various K-12 school types. On a line continuum, it might look like this:

Various School Brain Approaches

extreme left brain approach = most Christian schools
moderate left = private prep; some public schools
bilateral = some public schools
slightly right = some public schools
moderate right = some private schools
extreme right = Montessori and Alternative schools

As you can see, Christian schools, (as well as many churches), must begin to think and present a little differently. They will not succeed if they remain in an extreme left-brained world. Yes, Christian students can succeed on present very left-brain tests such as state tests and SAT's. But in the job market, it might be different. And in the future, the tests themselves might be different. For example, the addition of an essay (a right-brain process) to the SAT.
The public schools are slowly going to the right. Well, I should say WERE going. This shift has been interupted by the obsessive left-brain testing in the "Leave No Child Behind" program.

However, there are some problems when a society goes over to a right brain orientation. One is, the new Agers, superstition and occult flood in. Consider this. About 10 years ago, many top companies pleaded with the top MBA schools like Stanford, Wharton and so forth, to please stop turning out left-brain number crunchers. Even then the society was making this right shift where more intutive people were needed. Some of these schools began to offer intuitive courses which were basically new age meditation. And now, through the contempletive spirituality movement, this is seeping into the church. That is why I say we need to be bilateral The left and right brain need to check each other.

What is fascinating to me is the kind-of-war going on between the left-brained oriented Christianity of the Young Calvinists and the right-brained oriented CHristianity of the emergents. It's simply a right-left battle. Well, and theological too. The solution? Bring in the cross and resurrection and look at them from both sides--left and right.

Now here is a personal note: I am a very left-brain thinker, so to me, it would be wonderful if our society would simply remain as it is. But since it's changing, I have for several years, challenged myself with right-brain games and exercises to strengthen that side of my brain. For example, FRee Cell, the solitary game on Windows is a right-brained exercise. I believe firmly that it's mostly the right side that hears God while the left side processes it. And, as I have strengthened the right side more, I am hearing God better...:)

The Emergents and Postmodern Philosophy - Part 4

Lyotard's Meta-narrative vs.
Micro-narrative

Jean-Francois Lyotard is know for his criticism of universal truth much like Foucalt whom we talked about yesterday. Another name for universals is the Grand Narrative or Meta-Narrative. He felt there were many narratives to examine, which he called micro-narratives. The reason for this was the diversity in the world. Not every peoples and every individual is covered by one grand narrative. For example, Lyotard points out that pagans do not share universal beliefs about Knowledge that let's say, Europeans/Americans do. He "called for a series of mini-narratives that are 'provisional, contingent, temporary, and relative.'” However, he did say some meta-narratives might be alright; but that we should at least examine them and not take them as truth without question.


By this time you might be seeing something problematic with this philosophy as put against the Christian "Meta-narrative." So what do we do about this? Well, the emergents have thought this out and come up with the argument that simply putting forth propositions (i.e. The Four Laws) are too simplistic and confining. They do have an overarching meta-narrative--that of Genesis to Revelation. But, they approach it in a micro-narrative way, that is borrowing various stories and ideas of theology from various groups and traditions instead of just a narrow tradition such as Reformational, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, etc. They tend to shun statements from Christians that say "Ours is the true belief system."

Listen to Brian McLaren,
Making absolute truth claims—so important to evangelism in the modern era—becomes problematic in the postmodern context. Instead, he said, we can focus on recruiting people who follow Jesus by faith (without claims of certainty or absolute knowledge) with the goal of being transformed and participating in the transformation of the world. "Our lack of example in speech, behavior, love, faith, and purity may also explain why we must rely so heavily on arguments, many of them making claims that appear to postmodern people to be coercive and colonial, and therefore immoral, heavily laced with adjectives like absolute and objective to modify the noun truth,"

The emergents have a good point that the western meta-narratives might not fly well in other cultures we are trying to evangelize. And, the emergents also say, they don't fly well with the western postmoderns either. So what is their solution?

Here is McLaren again,
"Incredulity toward meta-narratives, then, can be understood as common sense: after you've seen millions of people killed by other people who felt they had a right, based on their meta-narrative, to do so, not to maintain some degree of incredulity would be - wouldn't it? - stupid.
Meanwhile, that incredulity created problems of its own, not the least of which is this: if one doubts all systems of belief, all ideologies, all universal stories, what does one live by - self interest? If big stories are dangerous to live by, are small stories better, or no stories? Is that possible? Won't the absence of big stories and big ideas and comprehensive belief systems leave people vulnerable to relativism and narcissism and consumerism?

So, some people are worried that "postmoderns" will embrace relativism as an excuse to do anything they want. But other people are still worried that "moderns" will use their absolutism as an excuse to do anything they want - and the "moderns" tend to have more and bigger weapons. One side is against the other's supposed denial of truth in the interest of self-indulgence, and the other side is against its opposite's apparent monopolization of truth in the interest of political or religious domination. Many of us are convinced that both sides are right about each other's danger. We are seeking a way to be faithful Christians while taking both dangers seriously. We may not have all the details worked out yet. But these things take time."

So, now we understand the term emergent "conversation." They are in the midst of conversing with each other – that is - working all of this out. And that is great, but what alarms me is their tendency to downplay or even reject (at least it seems to me) the core of the message which is THE CROSS and what happened there. Me thinks they need to get beyond their favorite books, the gospels and begin to read Acts and the epistles. After all, the gospels only present one side of the narrative, right? Or, perhaps I am tangled all up in my own meta-narraitve….:)

The Emergents and Postmodern Philosophy - Part 3

What is truth? That is a question philosophers throughout the centuries have pondered. But for the most part, they almost all agreed that there was A Truth. There might have been a difference as to what it was, but the Truth was for everyone. In postmodern philosophy, however, there might not be one truth. There may be several and you can adopt the one that is right for you.

Michel Foucalt was a contemporary of Derrida (whom we discussed in the last two posts), a Frenchman who eventually came to the Untied States and taught at University of California at Berkeley. He died in 1984. Foucault was a sort of philosppher-sociologist because he studied various groups. His prime interests were the study of insane asylums and prisons. He saw that in order to keep the "inmates" under control, the guards, nurses, doctors, etc. had to sell them a "truth." This truth was THE Truth. Foucault disagreed with this concept and felt it was controlling. Therefore, he believed that if anyone came to you and said they had THE Truth, you must be wary. In his work, Knowledge/Power, he pointed out that what someone says doesn't necessarily have to be true. It just has to be sold as true and passed on down to others as true.

Now let's contrast this with Biblical truth and especially what Jesus said about himself in John 14:6 - "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
I wonder if postmoderns who have grown up with this mutli-truth philosophy, when they become Christians, subconsciously have trouble with the concept of THE Truth. I mean they might accept it mentally, but deep inside is there confusion do you think? Some emergents are meeting this challenge by giving other interpretations to what they call propositional truths. They especially have some interesting interpretations of what Paul wrote in his epistles. Or, they jsut ignore the epistles altogether and concentrate on the gospels. But others are couching the propositional truths in the complete Biblical story from Genesis to Revelation, which might be a good idea.

So, Church, I think our work with the postmodern generation is cut out for us, considering all of these societal influences working among them .

The Emergents and Postmodern Philosophy-Part 2

Yesterday I introduced the concept of Jacques Derrida's deconstructionalism and I presented the subtitle of Brian McLaren's book, Generous Orthodoxy. I asked if you saw anything interesting as pertaining to deconstructionalism. Again, here is the subtitle:

Why I am a missional, evangelical, post/protestant, liberal/conservative, mystical/poetic, biblical, charismatic/contemplative, fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican, Methodist, catholic, green, incarnational, depressed- yet hopeful, emergent, unfinished Christian

What McLaren is doing here is flattening the binaries. If you are lost at this point, you may wish to read Part 1 of this series here.

Welcome back if you left us to read Part 1. Now, continuing with McLaren's binaries. He's flattening or equalizing them. In other words, conservative is equal to liberal interpretations of theology and the Bible. However, in his other writings he at times reverses the binaries. In other words, instead of the usual binary in the center as the accepted one, and the "marginal one" at the margins, he reverses that. So, liberal is actually in the center and conservative is at the margins. Derrida wouldn't like this...that is not if these binaries remained that way. The reason for this is because you would have the same situation with one over the other - the binaries just changed order of importance and acceptance. But then, this is what our society has done. The white European male is toast; all the third world groups are in. Men are out; women are in. Straights are out; gays are in. Or to put it into Derrida's lingo - the binaries have been reversed. And now, if this wasn't bad enough to dissolve absolutism in our society, many of the emergents are doing it.

Then should we reverse it and go back to where it was? I believe we need to make a case by case examination. Some binaries need to stay where they are. For example, "God is light. In Him is no darkness at all." Light is the center and darkness is the marginal. And it should stay that way. But in other cases, some binaries may need to be flattened or equalized. So, instead of man being the center and woman at the margins with a negative connotation, equalize them. That doesn't mean women will take over the function of men or vice versa. It means as persons, women and men are equal in the sight of God without either having a negative connotation and being at the margins.

For example, postmodern Christians need to see the binary - rich and poor - flattened; not the poor in the center and the rich marginalized. Everyone - rich, poor or in between - deserves ministry and our attention. We don't need to choose one over the other. Well, then what about the truth of where these binaries go? That is why we need to stay close to the Bible - to learn what it thinks of where binaries should go. In the next post we'll look at poststructuralism, Michel Foucalt, and more about what he said about truth.

The Emergents and Postmodern Philosophy-Part 1

I've made a startling discovery. I've been reading about some postmodern philosophers, most of whom are either agnostics or atheists. At the same time, as you know if you read my blog, I am also reading scads of emergent books. And guess what? A lot of what I'm reading in postmodern philosophy is showing up in emergent writings and teachings. Interesting...eh?

So, let's examine this further, Today, I want to discuss a guy named Jacques Derrida who died last year. So he is a very contemporary postmodern philosopher. In fact, many date the beginning of the postmodern period in the year of 1966 when Derrida gave his famous lecture at John Hopkins University. Many of the 60's students got hold of this teaching as well as other postmodern philosophers whom I will bring to your attention in the next few days. Many of these students ended up as grad students and are now teaching in our colleges and universities. When I get finished with this series, I think you will understand how all of this political correctness got started and why the emergents are "catching on" to it too.

Derrida is considered the father of a philosophy called deconstructionism. Here is part of that philosophy. He teaches something called binaries. These are sometimes opposites or sometimes not. Here are some examples:

good/evil
light/dark
man/woman
freeman/slave
rich/poor
western nations/eastern nations

Derrida teaches that it isn't necessary to see both in a text; that usually one is implied, usually the one he calls marginal. And, the marginal is often the one ignored, considered bad or looked down on by society. So, to take our examples above - good is good; evil is not. Evil is the marginal. Light is good, dark is not; dark is the marginal and so forth. He calls emphasizing one over the other (especially in a positive light) hierarchies. Then he surmises, what would happen if you reversed the hierarchies. What if evil was good and good was bad? Or, woman was the important person and man was marginal? But he doesn't want to leave it there. How about using Hegel's synthesis. So, combine some of good and some of evil and so forth. (Hegel was a chief influences upon Derrida). This is called flattening by Derrida - when both binaries are equalized and even played around with (that is, at times one is on top and then the other one).
He has created some interesting philosophical words and one is erasure. He surmises, wonder if you erase both binaries because they are inadequate to say what you need to say or what is real.

Derrida also teaches that words can mean different things depending on who is reading or hearing them. This obviously has big implications for Bible interpretation.

To close, let me show you Brian McLaren's title of one of his most-read books, Generous Orthodoxy. Here is the subtitle. As you read the subtitle, think about what you just learned about binaries and flattening them (and synthesizing them).
Here is the subtitle:
Why I am a missional, evangelical, post/protestant, liberal/conservative, mystical/poetic, biblical, charismatic/contemplative, fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican, Methodist, catholic, green, incarnational, depressed- yet hopeful, emergent, unfinished Christian

Do you see what I see?

Notes from the Emergent Front by Mike Corley

Mike Corley went recently to the Emergent '07 Conference in Austin, Texas. Here are snippets of his observations. You can read his entire comments about the first day at the link at the end (where it says Source).

I truly come to this conference with an open mind and a compassionate heart. In times past I have been harshly critical of the ECM (Emerging Church Movement) and while I stand by the point of my comments, I may have said some things without the compassion and mercy that I should have.
But I will say now that there has been little to change my mind about the beliefs and practices of the Emerging Church. The statements made by the panel last evening, all of which would probably admit they are leaders of the ECM, were sad, shocking and even outrageous. Many basic tenets of the faith were called into question or even outright rejected, usually under the caveat that no one has a hold on the truth and that truth was not absolute and was subjective to each individual’s personal perspective, the culture they live in and their personal experiences.
I guess the running theme here is ambiguity, doubt and uncertainty about almost everything, except the fact that everyone undoubtedly has the right to define truth and practice as they see fit.

And here is a statement that I 'm glad Corley made because I think I share his feeling. I am now reading my 16th emergent-type book and I feel sick at times in my stomach. But at other times, depending on the author, I learn a lot about HOW to do church and How NOT to do it for the postmodern generation, and even maybe us older folks. Again, as I have said repeatedly, it's the MESSAGE that is lacking. So, here is the stunner of a statement that Corley wrote:

Not since attending a meeting of The Jesus Seminar have I been so saddened, and yes even shocked by what I have heard.
More importantly, I came away from the last night’s session with extreme sadness, as so many people are basing their eternities on a subjective faith that may or may not be consistent with the absolute truth of God’s Word.I will be listening and learning today for the second day of discussions.

Amen, Mike.


Source: http://theexpositor.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/day-one-at-emergence-07

Quote of the Week

"The next 'Billy Graham' can’t be building a palatial church facility that seats 80,000 to hear bands and motivational talks. Not while Africa, Asia and the world need the encouragement and resources American evangelicals can provide."

Source: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whos-on-the-next-billy-graham-this-season

Will the Real Prophets Please Stand Up?

I'm going to take a short break from all things emergent and then really go into its philosophy and the relationship to the mostly atheistic postmodern philosophers over the weekend. I think you will be fascinated by my research and reading this last year.

I don't know if many of you are into the "prophetic." By that term I am mainly talking about Charismatic "prophetic," not dispensational-Revelation-last days prophetic. We seem to have a "war" of sorts going on between two prophetic movements. One has people like David Wilkerson and Andrew Strom. The other one is mainly from the Third Wave Charismatic camp.

First, here is what the Wilkerson-Strom camp has been saying lately,

From Andrew Strom's prophetic list, (you can find this here), we are seeing more of the following type of prophecy. This was sent out on Nov. 8, 2007. Here is part of it,

Actually, according to all the data that I have seen, the dollar situation is not even the worst of the problems. There is a global Credit Crunch underway - affecting giant banks and Investment companies the worst - and every day we are getting news of MULTI-BILLION dollar write-downs. All of this its effects are being felt worldwide. -And it is growing worse.

This Credit crisis by itself actually threatens the entire SYSTEM -no exaggeration. And it is already underway - NOW. Many international banks are in crisis mode already - but how long it takes to reach "Main Street" is difficult to know. There is already some fallout. For instance, giant retailers such as Wal-Mart reported yesterday their worst October in over a decade. But this is just the beginning of sorrows.

As one commentator put it today.....the major investment banks are marching in lock-step towards bankruptcy..."

The "D-WORD" that I mentioned in the title of this article is, of course, the word "DEPRESSION". I continue to stand by my statement of many months ago that within 3 years this nation will be in a terrible financial depression - possibly the worst that it has ever seen. Right now, things are right on track to see this fulfilled.

But WHY??

The answer to this question mostly lies in one word - "GREED". There has been an absolute orgy of Greed in this country - from the Investment Bankers selling shady Mortgage-Backed Securities to the condo flippers and Real Estate Appraisers and "Junk Bond" specialists and "Liar's Loan" officers. And what is left is an absolute mountain-pile of shameful, unethical financial garbage - which nobody is willing to swallow any more.
GREED is the word. At the end of the day, all of this has been for the love of the Almighty Dollar.

In fact, even CHRISTIAN AMERICANS love the Almighty dollar so much that they are willing to make up ENTIRE DOCTRINES to prove that God loves money just as much as they do. It is a new kind of gospel - never seen in the history of the world before. The Americans invented it and spread it around the earth. And now, even in REVIVAL COUNTRIES, this gospel of greed is taking over. Carter Conlon says that he was in a poor African nation recently where there are 700,000 little children living without parents on the streets - and yet the PASTORS ARE DRIVING BMW's and preaching SELFISH PROSPERITY. Where did they get such sickness? -They got it from America. We beam it to them live by satellite.

And this is why I believe God is about to make an EXAMPLE of the USA. -He has to. All the nations follow her lead. The entire church worldwide looks to her for guidance. And she has become a center of corruption and spiritual sickness almost without precedent in the history of the world. She has made the whole earth "drunk" with her fornications, her movies, her MTV, her music, her rebellion, her love of money. And so I am convinced that God is about to make an 'example' of her before all nations. He cannot have a "Christian" country spreading such things in the earth.

When I am in Nigeria again this February I plan to preach this very thing. -That God is making an example of America so that all the nations will fear. -That this is what happens when you follow a creed of "God wants me rich", of pleasure-seeking, materialism,
selfishness and greed. -That God is about to demonstrate to the whole earth what will happen to such a nation. Do you think He is just going to stand by and watch us ruin His Revivals forever?

God has a controversy with you, America. He is girding Himself up for war. I hope you are ready to find out what it is like to get yourself on God's "wrong side".

Enjoy the coming Christmas, America. It may be your last really enjoyable one for a very long time.

And here is what David Wilkerson said in his newsletter I received today,
The past few months we have been receiving an increasing number of letters and writings from our readers about dreams and visions concerning judgements on America. Some of these we discount immediately because thy are unscriptural and obviously disoriented ramblings. But what we are now receiving cannot be discounted.

It appears that the Holy Spirit is speaking to many godly people about impending disaster on our land. They all see and hear the same message: something is coming soon that will forever change the way we live. These readers are not alarmists; they are intelligent, praying people who love America but have been shaken by what they have envisioned. None of them claim to be prophets, but are simply housewives, laymen, pastors of small churches - unknown ordinary people upon whom the Holy Spirit is moving in a prophetic way.

Now, we go to the opposite - the Third Wave prophets. To be fair, a few have warned a little bit about disaster on America, but they usually say if we pray and fast we shall be fine. An example of this type of prophet is Kim Clement. I have been collecting his prophecies (via the Elijah list), for the past several years. Here are snippets from them that discuss what we've been talking about here. You can find many of his recent prophecies for yourselves at his website here. One reason I've collected his prophetic words is because I am curious to see if they come to pass. Many really believe they do. But I find most of them very vague and several interpretations could be applied.
Most of his prophetic words, and this is true of many Third Wavers, follows the theme - God is going to raise up health, prosperity, success for the land, renewal, revival, and so forth.

From Oct. 28, 2006:
"Prophesy, prophesy, prophesy to America! Prophesy, prophesy, prophesy to America!" God says, "Open up your mouth and shout, 'Freedom, liberty, life, salvation, deliverance, America come alive! Shout!"

""I will give you oil, and more oil, and more oil," but God said, "what shall come forth from this Nation, will make you independent, and you shall send the Gospel throughout the earth again as you did before," says the Lord."

From Sept. 23, 2006:
"A Host of Angels Are Coming to This Nation
God says, "Let the trumpet sound. I will make a way for you. There's an angel I have sent to listen to you. There's an angel I have sent to listen to your prayers. There is a Host I have sent to this nation. They are listening to you. There's a host of angels that I have commanded that are coming into this nation at this time. There's an angel assigned to you and is listening to you. They have heard the sound of life. They have heard the sound of love."
"There's an angel I have sent to you tonight with a call. It's the call of Isaiah. It's the call that Isaiah felt on his lips. There's a fire of the Holy Ghost I have sent to you. The nation of America will rejoice as the victory is near, not far, but it's near. There's an angel sent just for you. There's another I have sent, something is in his hands for every one of you," says the Lord. "
The Best Years of Our Life Are Upon Us
The mantle of Elijah has come. It has come for your children to hear, for your children to know that something unusual is about to happen. For your children to know that the best years of their life are upon them. There's a Holy, Holy shaking. Your children's children, they will know that the best years of their life is upon them." God says, "The mantle of Elijah has been released. The portion has come upon this generation. The best years of our life are upon us. I want every one of you to know that I will keep My Word. Tonight as you stand before Me, as you take the call of fire. I will make you aware of My Presence today. I am touching your soul, your hearts, and your families."

From March 3, 2007:
"But God said, "This is the month of March. I am taking women and children," and God said, "there will be one of the greatest revivals ever in this Nation," says the Spirit of God. "I am taking fathers and sons and joining them together to bring forth the spirit of Elijah back to this Nation. Which is what?
God said, "The truth--will break the power of idols; break the power of idols. They will be torn down," because God says, "I have promised in the month of March, the beginning of great favor." And for the people that would want this, allow God to hear your voices, for great favor is coming to you in this month of March.
"They have laughed and they have said, 'You have lost your light, you have lost your oil, and you have lost your salt, America.' But allow this prophet to tell you--What is about to take place in this Nation will frighten to the ends of the earth."
For God said, "What discoveries will happen this year. This year," God says, "so great shall be the discoveries that the economic revival will be so vast, that they will look at you and say, 'What happened overnight? What happened to this Nation overnight?" Over one night everything will change. You say, 'I have heard this before.'"
God said, "I have a promise in the year 2007 and in the year 2008, to bring America back to its lofty position on its knees. No, I will not humiliate you," says the Lord. "But if you will give Me your children and you give Me your families, I will take you and make you an example of the greatest favor. I will cause you to be debt-free. I want you to be debt-free. I want to clear your burden of debt," says the Lord. "I want to clear your burden of sin. I want to give you salt, oil, and light."

From April 4, 2007:
"And in the month of May and October of this year, I will grant an unusual amount of favor. I will grant an unusual amount of favor not only to the Church but into this Nation, for the rain shall come upon the just and the unjust. For suddenly, there will be a rapidity, there will be a movement that shall happen so quickly that they shall say, 'We did not bring birth or give birth to this. No man will take credit for this that is about to happen." God said, "It shall be like Elijah, where there was no proof of his birth or of his beginning and no proof of his death." God said, "This that I will do, shall give no man credit, for it shall be the most unusual thing,"

[Note: I am trying to think what favor we've seen last month since he said this October-2007 we would see favor on America as we've not seen recently. Frankly, it seems to me that both the Church and this Nation has really been dissed recently. Perhaps I am missing something here?]

Also from April 4:
"America, America, you are the salt of the earth. America, America, you are the light of the world!" The Spirit of God says, "As you sing these words, surely, I will remember the promises that were made on the steps of the Capitol," though now abandoned, and though now forgotten, God said, "I will not forget. And I will bring to this Nation what it deserves. For in 2009, you will say, 'This is the beginning and will never end.' Therefore, rejoice, for whatever you see tonight, I will give it to you," says the Spirit of God."

From July 14, 2007:
"I will bring peace to this nation as it has never ever experienced. Do not fear, your borders are protected, your schools are protected, your children are protected, your jets are protected, your air space is protected, your seas are protected, your land is protected, My people are protected. For this day, the God of the universe hears your praise and sends the fire of God to Pakistan. It is time for the exposure says the Spirit of the Living God. Rejoice America, your restoration has begun. Now I will pay back," says the Spirit of the Lord, "for vengeance is mine. I will pay back your enemies by putting you on the top; economically I will drive you back to the highest place, as I do what I'm going to do with your energy crisis. You will have the Middle East come to you and say 'Will you share with us what you have discovered?'"

From Sept. 1, 2007:
The Spirit of God says, "Hear the words that come from My heart. America has endured much agony and much pain. This nation has caused life to come even though death may call." Now God says, "You are about to enter a season of peace, as I have said before, but I shall begin with My people. It is the end of tears. It is the end of war. It is the end of a season and now grace has begun. Understand when I say it is your time, then it is your time," says the Lord."

And to end, I thought this was an interesting prophecy from Clement on
Dec. 31, 2006:

"Men and women who have longed to go into the marketplace, fear not, do not fear anymore; the marketplace has been opened up says the Lord of Hosts. NASDAQ, NASDAQ you have now risen to a place where you are prideful, but God says this is a sign, for the economy of this nation shall rise above and shall begin to dictate to the nations of the earth. The strength of the dollar shall come because of the strength of the spiritual life in this nation. Watch Me take possession of Wall Street says the Spirit of the Lord."

Hmmmmm

Clement has recently prophesied earthquakes in California and kind of vaguely the fires we've had. He also seemed to prophesy the flood in New Orleans, so at times he can be right on, but as I read these, I feel they are vague and then later interpreted by those sympatico to him as a fulfillment. For example, he talked about the word evacuation but didn't relate it to anything. Then after the California fires, many including Clement felt it was probably concerning the fire evacuations. But, in the OT and the NT I see much more specific prophesies.
Francis Frangipane seems to agree with Clement. In several articles he says God will not bring a judgement against us because He needs us too much for overseas missions. I really do hate to put Frangipane in the Third Wave category but he seems to constantly drift over there.

Hmmmmm.

And the Wilkerson-Strom group IMO have more specific ones. On the other hand, Wilkerson has been prophesying a Great Depression in America since he published his book, The Vision in 1971. And, Strom has been prophesying similar things for years.

So, I leave it up to you to decide what to do with these.

A Guide to Emergent-Speak

It's important as we continue our discussion of things emergent to understand the terminology they often use. Some of it is good, especially in the questions they ask, which sadly, aren't being answered well, or even answered at all, by most churches. But some of their "speak" is frankly not good; and some of it could be good if it wasn't so vague.

So, to start us off, here are four phrases that I've come across in almost every emergent book I've read (I just finished my 15th emergent-y book). Do you know of any more?

*who's in and who's out
-->defintition - we shouldn't worry so much as to who has accepted Christ and who hasn't.
-->why they say it - some people need time to "follow Jesus" as conversion usually is a process.
-->what they really mean - we don't want to exclude people so we allow non-Christians to be baptized and even become members of the church. We don't wish to hurt their feelings, make them feel unwanted nor hinder them in any way in receiving Christ someday.
-->where it falls down - What I want to see is the day the ones who are not converted are on prayer teams, leadership teams, teaching their children and then marrying their older children. Remember, the unconverted do not have the Holy Spirit nor the mind of Christ. I think when these things occur, we might see the emergent "conversation" change a bit. In other words, I'm not sure some of this has hit them where they live yet, but as we older ones know, it will.


*Jesus Followers or Christ Followers
-->what it means - emergent name for Christians. In some emergent groups it is the name for anyone who attends their church regularly. Remember, they aren't concerned with who's "in" or "out."
-->why they say it - they don't like the word Christian because of the baggage they feel it carries.
-->what they really mean - we don't wish to pin people down as to if they really are born again or not.
-->where it falls down - I understand their motivation but frankly, the term as used by many emergents is very vague. It has come to include liberal Protestants and wanna-be emergents who "follow" the teachings of Jesus as well as they can. It tends to exclude anything the apostles wrote as well as any cogent plan to salvation. In other words, the key word here is VAGUE.

*Telling our story
-->why they say it - they feel traditional, modernistic ways of communicating the gospel is not meaningful to today's world, especially to the younger generation
-->what they really mean - here is the gospel but not in the traditional Four Laws format. Instead we tell a "story" - the story of God's redemption of people from Genesis to Christ and beyond.
-->where it falls down - actually this is one of the emergents' better ideas for today's generation. However, again, the word vague comes into play at times in their "story." If they make it very clear as to what Christ did at the cross and how we can receive it, then the story idea is a good one IMO.


*Thinking outside the Box/Jesus outside the Box
-->why they say it - our thinking is too stilted in modernism and traditional theology. We need the freedom to think further than these places.
-->what they really mean - We want to be sure Biblical interpretations are not products of fundamentalist theology. We also wish not to be hemmed in and that includes our thinking. We want to be free to synthesize other thoughts, philosophies, religions and histories into Christianity.
-->where it falls down - the problem with this one is the synthesis, Hegelian style, that is often done in the "thinking outside the box." Otherwise, it can be creative and useful.

Totem-To Temple's Blog Today-the Mafia

The Totem to Temple blog has a great analogy of the mafia to the prosperity TV evangelists. Here's a preview for you, but do read the full post (link below).

*The mafia’s concept of ‘payment protection’ where the mafia takes over a part of town and demands payment from the business or expect to have your business ransacked and your family subjected to bodily harm.

You don’t send me money, God’s gonna take your job away, break your car down, strike you with cancer….

*The mafia’s public personna of going out on the town in nice cars, living in big private mansions, and dressing in nice suits with a brash cockiness and an attitude of ‘come after us, I dare you…”

Look at the televangelists, Bentleys, gated communities, and custom tailors and seamstresses to make their distinctive clothes preaching sermons daring the ‘heresy hunters’ and the media to expose them bragging that God loves them so much that he would ‘exterminate’ those who come against them.

*The mafia’s way of dealing with those who stand in their way.

The history is there, multiple gunshot wounds, cars being blown up, mysterious disappearances, etc. However, listen to a Charismatic and Word of Faith teacher tell you about God handles those who decide to come up against them ranging from Cancer, permanent ailments, divorce, striking children, strange deaths…


Here is the link to Totem's post entitled, Cosa Del Dio.

Good Post from the I. Monk

I am diligently working on the emergent posts I promised a few days ago. I am going to bring all of it...the good, bad and ugly to you....just like I did in my Word of Faith posts. I don't believe in dissing 100% or embracing 100% when it comes to certain movements. And those latter two fall into those categories.

So, for today, I want to recommend a post done at The Internet Monk a while ago. I thought it might be good to see what needed to be improved in evangelical land before we go into emergent more in depth in a few days.

Here is the link entitled, The Thirteen Critical Problems Facing Contemporary Evangelicalism.

The monk always brings forth good stuff that are deep and insightful, so go read it--it's not that long.

Inter-Library Loans

You might wonder, when you see my reading schedule, how I can afford all of these books. Well, my secret is out - I usually don't buy them. And the secret word is - Inter-library loan. What is that you may wonder? Many local libraries across the United States are part of this system where they can get books, and other materials (like DVD's, etc.), from other libraries and even college libraries in the U.S.


My library is a wonderful system and we have almost anything you would want. But of course, when it comes to Christian books, they obviosuly don't carry a lot and certainly not the newest ones. So, if the book I want isn't listed in our extensive catalog, I request it on an inter-library loan. Almost always they can get it. You wouldn't believe where the books I've requested have come from. One came from the Appalachian Bible College in Kentucky, one from Colorado Seminary, another from the Masters Seminary here in S. California where I live. Others came from a Bible College in Iowa, and BIOLA and Azusa Pacific out here. And others came from public libraries all over the U.S.A.

So, if you cannot find what you want or need in your local library's catalog, ask your library people if they do inter-library loans. This especially is great for students.

Christian Carnival CXCVII

Welcome to this week's Christian Carnival.

If you submitted a post but do not see it here, please feel free to send it to my email (fcov.geo@yahoo.com) up to 6:00 PST (9:00 EST) today, Wednesday, Nov. 7.
Please do not submit another post today if you have already submitted one for this carnival as the hosting submission process for next week hasn't been set yet. Thanks.

And now here is the lineup:

*There is a lot of chatter lately in the blogosphere about discipleship and how the one-stop salvation prayer must have a life of discipleship to complement it. Cao at Cao's Blog has written a very good encapsulation of this process and the need for it in his post entitled, A Life of Discipleship

*Richard at dokeo kago grapho soi kratistos Theophilos in his post, Great lamentation studies the word devout in Acts 8:2 both from the NT perspective as well as the OT one.

*Recently, as many of you know, there has been a spate of books from well-known atheists trying to diss religion and especially Christianity. Doug at Bounded Irrationality presents a very good apologetic concerning who or what, if anyone or anything, created the universe. Doug really does a good job in making his argument concise and understandable in his post, Belief in God is perfectly reasonable.

*Martin at Sun and Shield always has interesting things to say. Although he usually doesn't write about political things, he is making an exception with his post, What Influences the Political Choices of Christians? Immigration as an Issue. Living in Southern California as I do, Martin's post was very interesting to me indeed.

*Don takes us on an interesting journey of the butterfly. He says that Christians are often compared to caterpillars in their old life turning into "new creatures" like a butterfly in their new life. But what are butterflies like? And how do they really fly? Learn all of this in his post, Life Lessons from Butterflies at Don's blog,
The Evangelical Ecologist.

*James brings us a short but deep post entitled Truth or Lie at his blog, Healing Through Words. The concept he presents here slowly grabs you. In fact, I found myself thinking about truth and lies for several days after reading this.

*Ever wonder what this verse really means?

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

FMF of the blog, Free Money Finance brings us several interpretations including his own (by the way, there might not be an "eye gate" which I hadn't known before I read this) in his post, Camels and Needles.

*Iraq isn't the only war gong on as Nick tells us in his post entitled Five Forgotten Fights at his blog, Crossinator.

*What would happen if we didn't have speech, song or dance? At therapydoc's blog, Everyone Needs Therapy, he does a post about two angels trying to talk God out of giving such esteemed powers to humans, but God thinks it might be a good idea anyway. You can view their conversation at his post, The Gift of Speech.

*Boy, I sure wish there were more 20-something Christians like Casey at The Limitless: Comeback. You've got to read his perspective as a parent on how Christians need to hold the line on compromise in his post, Sin in the Church - So What.

*Christian Youth Conferences today are waaaay different than they were when some of you (over 40) grew up. Jake at JakeBouma.com recently attended the National Youth Workers Convention and boy are the topics waaay different than they used to be. You can read his summary of some of the seminars in his post, NYWC ‘07 Day 4: A new vision.

*Mark at Pseudo-Polymath looks into a well-known Eastern Orthodox collection of texts called the Philokalia. This collection includes a part which tells us how the world of the demonic is influencing us and some possibilities on how to deal with these demons. His post is called Philokalia Monday: Evagrius Ponticus on Discrimination and Demons.

*Rich Mullins sings a song entitled "Growing Young about the Prodigal son. Ken at True Believer gives us his commentary on the lyrics of the song in his post, Growing Young.

*Jennifer of Diary of 1 asks us, "Where have I been weighed and found wanting?" She asks the question through the song by Johnny Cash, "Belshazzar." She even has a You Tube video of Cash singing the song. The post is entitled, Weighed in the Balance and Found Wanting.

*What would it be like to spend a few days in a monastery and then come home? Kevin of Everyday Liturgy did just that and reports what it was like. After I read his post, entitled, Back to Life, Back to Reality..., it seemed like the answer to what life was like when he left the monastery to come home was in one word--NOISY!

*A lot of people are asking if Intelligent Design is science. Or, is it "religion?" ChrisB of Homeward Bound is attempting to answer this question in his post, Is Intelligent Design Science?. The first thing he does, which IMO is the right first thing to do, is to define science. I thought I knew what he was going to say but I was wrong. See if you can guess what his answer is.

*Rodney at The Journey reviews the movie, "What Would Jesus Buy" in his post, What Would Jesus Buy?. The main question in the movie is, Have we turned shopping into a religion?

*Anne of Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength believes there are some more things to be added to Thomas A Kempis' classic The Imitation of Christ, in her post, Imitation of Christ. This is a good summary of the sanctification process.

*I don't know about you but my achilles heel has been unforgiveness. And then there is the "R" word - reconcilliation. Jody of Jody Along the Path offers some good insights into this dilemma in her post, To Forgive Or Not Forgive – A Frequent Question.

*What happens when we put doctrine ahead of people? Or, when we center on one small Biblical doctrine. Henry of Threads from Henry's Web tackles this question in his post, Setting Doctrinal Priorities posted at Threads from Henry's Web. This post is unique in that Henry gives three examples from his own life when he did this very thing and what this personal experience taught him.

*Michael at Chasing the Wind examines Matthew, chapter 18. He has some very good observations in his post, Christian Behavior in God's Church. Note especially the first point (the "h" word) which the other points need to build upon.


*And, my contribution this week is entitled Yes, We Can!. It's about getting both the clear proclamation of the gospel of substitutionary atonement with the social gospel of helping the poor and justice. We don't need to choose between the two as evangelicals and liberal Protestants have done for over 100 years now.

Yes, We Can!

The problem I keep talking about with emergent isn't the HOW of what they are doing as much as the WHAT of the message they are...or I should say...aren't....proclaiming. There is a great article in this month's (Nov. 2007) Christianity Today magazine by a Youth For Christ leader in Sri Lanka, Ajith Fernando. Here are some excerpts in which he reinforces my own thoughts,

The Church is notorious for its course corrections. Toward the end of the 19th century, theological liberals began to emphasize the humanness of Christ. They presented Christ's life as theMAIN [emphasis mine] focus of the gospel.

Then he goes on to say that evangelicals reacted by emphasizing the atoning work of Christ, almost to the exclusion of the life [and teachings] of Christ. If this isn't deju vue 100 years later, I don't what is. It perfectly describes what is happening today in the emergent and even missional "conversation."

Fernando then continues,

But lately some disconcerting trends--more course corrections, if you will, have left me feeling uneasy. I hear [the emergent/seeker-sensitives] evangelicals talking a lot about justice and kingdom values but not proclaiming the gospel to those of other faiths and winning them for Christ.

And like I've been saying these past months here, can't we get the social gospel together WITH proclaiming the atoning work of Christ? Why can't we? Tim Keller asked this very thing recently too, and now Fernando is saying it along with some others. The answer is, Yes, we can. Here is how Fernando puts it,

This is why I am calling for a fresh commitment to proactive evangelism. We can't wait for people to come to us--we must urgently go to them. We must look for ways to make contact with them and use all our creativity and determination to communicate the gospel.

In the last sentence, he is actually opening the door for us to listen to the emergents on the HOW to reach people. I've found Keller (whom I consider more msisional then emergent) and others, including Dan Kimball, very good at helping us with this. I've reviewed in a series of posts previously here, Kimball's new book, "They Like Jesus But not the Church," where he includes lots of ways to connect with the postmodern generation. A book I'm reading now, "Reimagining Evangelism," by Rick Richardson seems to be following this same idea too.

So, to summarize, we MUST keep both poles in place--that of proclaiming the true gospel clearly AND living a life caring about the unfortunate and disenfranchised.

Someone Else Who Correctly Sees the Problem

This is an excellent quote from the book, City on a Hill: Reclaiming the Biblical Pattern for the Church in the 21st Century by Philip Ryken. I couldn't have said it better. Note the reference at the end of the quote to the similarity to liberal Protestantism 100 years ago. I am imagining I will be carping on that similarity for many days to come. And it seems I am not the only one who sees this, especially in the emergent village.

I do not think for a moment that the church should aspire to become irrelevant. There is always a need for Christians to speak the gospel into their own context. Rather, my concern is with the ever present danger of over-contextualizing. Consider what happens to a church that is always trying to appeal to an increasingly post-Christian culture. Almost inevitably, the church itself becomes post-Christian. This is what happened to the liberal church during the twentieth century, and it is what is happening to the evangelical church right now.


Source: A Revision of Evangelical Doctrine, Now Underway

Is There an Alternative to Emergent?

In the next few posts I want to present an alternative to the emergent village that makes sense and doesn't go over to hyper-Calvinism, hyper-dispensationalism, hyper-Arminanism (Finneyism in other words more than true Welayanism) or hyper-fundamentalism.

Here are two quotes that will start us out.

There is a Nigerian church, the RCCG Church (Redeemed Christian Church of God) that is growing by leaps and bounds, including starting churches here in the USA (I counted 283 listed in the USA at their website). What is the RCCG’s growth secret? The writer of the article I took this from says,
" I suspect it has something to do with their commitment to prayer, fasting and faith in God’s supernatural power."

Here is the other quote from a book I am reading entitled, Everyday Theoogy by Kevin vanhoozer. In a chapter on church architecture, chapter 5, is a quote by Premkumar D. Williams, especially about megachurches and those trying hard to relate to the culture,
"..models pore over their porfolios, singers over their music videos, and preachers over their sermons Yes, we can do these for Christ's sake, but when this involves advertising, programming, management, and leadership of a large number of people responsible for a variety of activities all geared toward creating the best impression on the visitor, there is a tencency to control the process so as to guarntee the product. This can tempt one to squeeze the Spirit out of the scene and lean on the dunamics of performance."

These two quotes give you a clue to where I am headed with this series. Stay tuned as I tell you about two revivals in the 20th century that I believe were the real deal, one here in America and the other in another country. Can you guess which ones they were and who headed them?

(Pentecostals and Charistmatics--Are you paying attention here?)