Single Christians and the Church

I'm going to make a rather outlandish sounding statement. Most churches treat their single adults like trash. Why? This has really baffled me for decades. So, first, let's look at how the church treats them, then let's see if we can find possible answers as to why they do these things.

What does the Church Do With Singles?
The church at large seems to have trouble combining singles and marrieds. Singles are consigned and confined to a special group called the "Singles Group." Sadly, there are many dysfunctional and hurting people in this group because truthfully, many people are not married for a reason. Singles need the larger church to "bounce" off of.

Churches often to send a silent (and sometimes loud and unmistakable) signal that singles are not welcome in their marrieds' group. Some churches find that they don't have enough singles for a group and so, unless the church has intergenerational Sunday School classes, the singles are told they have no where to go. This actually happened to me in one church a long time ago. Can you believe being told, "I'm sorry, but you cannot come to Sunday School, so just come to church." Lately I've talked on the Internet with people to whom this is still happening. I am seeing that in the singles' church world, little has changed.


Why Do Churches Do This?
At times I've heard something so ridiculous and insulting to single women especially, that it's embarrassing to talk about it, but I will. It has been said in many churches that some married women think the single women will steal their husbands. If you are a single women, I would think this would be insulting to you. I know it is to me. I have met hundreds of singles and believe me, almost none I've met go around hunting married husbands, although a few might. IN a blog I read every day, the single male blogger complains that many churches treat the single men jsut as bad. They think they might molest children. I've seen this too, thinking all single men must be gay and all single women must be lesbians. I don't encounter this out here in Southern California, but talking to people in the Bible Belt, there are those three that actually believe this stuff.

Christians Cannot Grow in Heterogeneous Groupings
Singles do not grow being thrown together. And actually, neither do marrieds. This is a general principal, since people with similar backgrounds don't grow being thrown together in a group. That is man's thinking but not God's. For example, here is how church's think. "Let's get all the ex-alcoholics in a group. Then the church doesn't understand why they still are having problems. Or better yet, let's get all the ex-homosexuals and lesbians in a group. Now, that's a bright idea. This heterogeneous grouping hinders rather than helps Christians.


Every church college-age person knows that the last thing in the world they would want happen to them is to have to "graduate" into the singles' group. So, they tend to stay in the college group on and on and on and.....
In the 1960,s when someone reached 23 they were asked to either go into the singles' group or, if married, of course then into the married group. Now, the "college" group has been extended to 25 in most churches and to 3o in more than a few. Anyone want to try for an extension up to 35? No one in their right mind wants to go into the singles' group . But why?

How Singles Are Treated
Singles are not treated with respect by most churches. They are treated more like youth than adults. Or, they are ignored. In many churches, single men would never be considered to be an elder. And what is really weird are the ages of most single groups now. I find that most of these groups do not have many under 40 years of age. In many, they are over 50. Where are the young singles then?

The Good News
I have some good news. Finally, younger singles in their 20's and 30's are standing up to this nonsense and telling their churches that they won't be separated from their married friends. And fortunately, many marrieds are saying the same thing. They don't understand why they have to be separated from their single friends. You see, today's youth form "posses." Singles and marrieds are in a posse (a group of friends, racially mixed and maritally mixed). And the posse isn't to be broken up because the church has some arcane notion of segregation according to marital status. According to George Barna, only 9% of evangelicals-----I said-----E-V-A-N-G-E-L-I-C-A-L-S-----between the ages of 18 and 30 attend church. So you see, these young adults are holding the upper card. The church is either going to allow marrieds and singles to be together, or the young people will find a church that will allow them to be together.

The Family Argument
Yes, I know about strengthening the family by getting everyone married as soon as possible. But does that really sound like a good idea? Does it sound advisable to rush people into marrying any 'ole Christian? Some singles are ready to marry at 20. Others really shouldn't be married until more maturity sets in, perhaps in their 30's, even 40's. And sadly, a few should never get married, or are selected by God to be single and celibate. Churches should be discipling all of their people, both marrieds and singles. That is the surest way for God to accomplish what He wants in a Christian's life. God should decide when or if a person is married and to whom, NOT the church.

In Conclusion
Single adult Christians should be treated with the same respect and given the same opportunities in the church that their married counterparts have and also be able to attend intergenerational and intermarital groups such as Sunday School classes. If the singles themselves want to form a group, fine, BUT NOT in place of being in smaller groups with other types of people.

Driscoll - that Queasy Feeling

I am a bit more hesitant than Steve Camp in discussing M. Driscoll in a bad light. But, I do not have a peace in my spirit about his ministry. Yes, I know his theology is aboveboard Reformational. But a lot of other things just don't seem to "match up" with his doctrine. Well, I read something a week ago and it really put together what I've been feeling about this for the past few years. It's from a man named Paul Walker and a missionary he knows. The missionary discusses this situation. Here are some excerpts,

I am hearing more and more young ¨reformed¨ people rave about Driscoll and how wonderful he is. For me I cannot say that or feel that way. I am seeing more and more people who claim to be reformed and may even preach it from the pulpit but the rest of the person is a denial of it. Driscoll’s theology clearly does not determine his methodology. He talks like the world, from the pulpit, in short, the way that he speaks is a clear contradiction of Ephesians 4:29 and 5:4.....

A man can claim to have good theology all day long, he can preach it from the pulpit, but I do not care about that only. If he is living something else, if his mouth is saying other things that contradict Scripture, then I do not care what he says about theology. I have a very, very bad feeling about this ¨new reformed¨ movement of calvinist that I am speaking about. It is nothing less than reformed pragmaticism. It seems that they are taking God and His Word as something casual but true instead of taking it as something irreplacable and the only standard for living. As Driscoll says ¨the traditional methods of evangelism are not working, lost people are not coming as we want them to, there is a problem¨. There is no problem, regeneration is a work of the Spirit and not something that man can bring about.

Now get this sentence because this is where it's at (pardon the bad grammar),

The problem is that no one believes in the work of the Spirit anymore in regeneration and conversion.

He then finishes by saying,

I will put it like this, if I hear Brother Paul Washer preach the best sermon ever preached, then after the sermon he is using his tongue like a pagan, cracking jokes at the sake of my Jesus, being crude and ill mannered, then I will say, that man is a speaker of the word but not a doer and I fear for him as a teacher of God’s Word. Knowing Brother Paul I know that he is not like that. We have got to be careful in who we promote and stop taking people at their word only.

I again also call for Reformational people to stop giving their assent to this behavior, no matter who it is. We need to study the Welsh Revival (for example) to understand how God's Spirit really works. Evan Roberts in 1905-1906 preached, and hardened miners, who had just visited the bars and brothels, became suddenly convicted as they walked past the church where Roberts was preaching. Many felt compelled to come in and many got saved (sorry for the old fashioned "fund--a--ment--a-li---st) term...:).

I am not trying to pick on Driscoll. According to this man's statement, there seem to be others doing the same thing. But today we must hold our leaders' feet to the fire as so many are selling us out, both young AND old leaders.

Source for Paul Walker's article

Seven Good Things

I came across something good by a fellow named Greg Stier of Dare 2 Share Ministries. I have summarized it here but do read the entire thing to see how he develops each point Biblically. He basically takes seven common statements and refutes them. Sadly, many evangelicals are saying these things too. The link to the full article is at the end of this post.

Here are the seven sentences that, in my opinion, are fighting words:

1. “Christians shouldn’t debate theology.”

2. “Every religion ultimately leads to God.”

3. “If a person lives a good life God will probably let them into heaven.”

4. “We can’t really ‘know’ anything for sure, especially when it comes to spiritual truth.”

5. “I follow the red letters of the Bible more than the black ones.”

6. “I refuse to believe that a God of love would send people to hell.”

7. “The gospel of Jesus is not a set of propositions.”


Source: http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080213/31173_Fight_Club_for_Christians.htm

The ECFA

Before my post today, allow me to quickly point out two blogs. First, Dan at Cerulean Sanctum has done a fantastic series on finances, future events and the church's role in all of this. You can find a list of links to that series here.


Second, this week's Christian Carnival is up now at diary of 1.

Now to today's post. So, what is the ECFA? Because of so many financial scandals and improprieties in evangelical ministries, many Christians agreed to set up a kind of accountability council. The result was the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. 2,000 organizations are members and the Council has stringent rules for fund raising and accountability. This has certainly been a giant step in the right direction. Sadly, I don't find many, if any, Word of Faith Ministries on the Council member list. And that takes us to Senator Grassley's probe of six of these mostly WOF ministries. I understand the concern on the part of many Christians that this might open the door to government snooping and even worse. However, since we have so many co-dependent Christians who support these non-Accountable types of ministries, I do believe we need the government to intervene at this point. The Body of Christ is supposed to discipline itself so we don't need government interference. But in the past few decades we have done a miserable job of that. By the way, the ministries Sen. Grassley is investigating are the "usual suspects":

Benny Hinn
Joyce Meyer
Kenneth Copeland
Creflo Dollar
Paula and Randy White
Eddie Long

IMO The ECFA has been a very welcome body in the battle for accountability and integrity.

New Age Christians?

Why are [born-again] Christians so easily getting into New Age teachings promoted by people like Oprah Winfrey, and "progressive" Christians like Brian McLaren and such? Why the lack of Discernment?

Is it a lack of good foundational Bible teaching and doctrine? A demon spirit assigned to the churches?

Both of the above? None of the above? Something else?

I am interested in your observations and opinions on this.

Politics in the Pulpit

I guess I am fortunate to live out here in So. Cal where it is rare in evangelical churches to hear politics from the pulpit. But my online friends in the South tell me it's done all the time, especially arround election time. I think that is sad. What churches need to do is teach us how to understand the Bible and hear God. Then God will help us know who to vote for. The following is one of the best quotes I've seen or heard about this.


Regarding Wright's use of the pulpit. When I first saw the Youtube excerpts of Wright's preaching, my first thought was not, "He hates America!" or "He's a racist!", but "What a terrible use of God's pulpit!" I feel exactly the same outrage whenever I see a candidate standing behind a pulpit -- Democrat or Republican. I feel exactly the same outrage whenever I see a preacher extolling the virtues (or vices) of a particular candidate -- Democrat or Republican. Surely the church pulpit is intended for higher and better matters than the small concerns of national politics! The pulpit is not an institution of the republic, but of the Kingdom, and it's only legitimate use is the preaching of King Jesus. Politics should be kept out of the pulpit not merely for reasons of church-state separation, but because the pulpit is for matters of such greater significance. And when King Jesus speaks from His Word on matters that pertain to politics -- such as personal or social ethics -- He speaks equally to all parties, all candidates, and all voters.

Source: http://www.reformation21.org/Reformation_21_Blog/Reformation_21_Blog/58/pm__114/vobId__7343/

State of the Church--Easter 2008

Sadly, in my 45 years of being a born-again evangelical Christian, I have never seen the evangelical church in such disarray as to it's message. I could tell you many things to illustrate this and so I have in the last 3 1/2 years of this blog. Sorry to be so negative but we are in crises. And I certainly am not the only one who is saying this. But I have heard and read glimmers of good things, like The Young Calvinists who are reading the 17th and 18th century Puritans; people like David Wilkerson and Tim Keller who are missional without losing the message or needing to be "kewl;" Baptist leaders like Albert Mohler who aren't playing the Three Monkey Game (I see nothing, hear nothing, know nothing) with their emergent pastors; other Baptists like Steve Gaines who are open to the moving of the Holy Spirit as it should be.

I am still waiting for the Pentecostals to get their act back together and look back at some of the great practices of old-time Pentecostalism (without the goofy stuff of course). There might be hope for the Assembly of God folks with their new Superindentent. I do hope so. Perhaps the AG's and the COGIC's need to get back to the teaching of founder Charles Mason; the COGICS to review their late Bishop Gilbert Patterson's teachings, and for heaven's sake, Foursquare pastors, would you please get out Aimee's teachings and dust them off? She knew what was happenin'.

There are two keys to winning people to Christ which should be happening as a result of what happened on Good Friday and Easter Sunday.
1) Hear the right message of salvation
2) Tell someone else that message AS God opens the door

Recently A group of charismatic ministers have called on American Christians to reclaim the neglected task of soul-winning. It's called "An Urgent Cry from the Nation's Evangelists." Here is a synopsis of their recommendations. Look at #7 especially:


1. A lack of spiritual zeal in our churches. “Soul-winning must be a passion, not a program,” one attendee said. The renewing power of the Holy Spirit is the key to shifting our churches into a place of contagious faith.
 
2. A spectator mentality. Many Christians have been deceived into believing that evangelism is the work of paid clergy or itinerant specialists. Said one evangelist: “You don’t limit tithers to those who have ‘a gift of giving,’ do you? Everybody tithes. In the same way, everybody is supposed to be doing evangelism.” Broocks, Hinkle and others made it clear that the primary role of the evangelist is not to conduct meetings but to train and equip all believers to win souls.
 
3. A cultural disconnect. Hispanic leader Samuel Rodriguez pointed out that a large segment of the millennial generation has abandoned church because they feel it isn’t relevant to their lives. As long as the church remains mired in superficial religiosity, we won’t reach young people—who crave authenticity and want to apply the gospel to their world.

[My comment" That's fine BUT DON'T LOSE THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS when trying to be culturally "relevant."]
 
4. An increasingly secular culture. Vincent Esterman, who has done street evangelism for decades in France and Australia, believes the United States would do well to study how Christian faith has waned in Europe. Americans will most likely face similar hostilities in our culture, since universalism and atheism are growing here.
 
5. Tensions between evangelists and pastors. Eric Cowley of Global Focus Ministries spoke for many in the room when he shared that many pastors feel threatened by evangelists and don’t want to share local church resources with them. At a time when the role of apostles and prophets has been reclaimed in charismatic circles, the role of the evangelist has been marginalized.
 
6. The church’s credibility crisis. Recent religious scandals, incessant fundraising on Christian television and reports of televangelists living in opulence have produced increased skepticism about preachers’ motives. Many of the leaders in Orlando were incensed by the blatant moral and ethical abuses occurring in our movement. Said one leader in a moment of candor: “If I see one more telethon on Christian television I’m going to puke.”
 
7. Bad theology. Rice Broocks pointed out that American Christianity has, at times, morphed into an errant “virus” that has had a negative impact on countries where it has been exported. “We preach a gospel that offers faith without repentance, grace without the fear of God and destiny without discipleship,” he said.
 
8. A poorly defined mission. Many churches no longer understand what evangelism is. Missionary mobilizer David Shibley offered the group a succinct definition, borrowed from his days in Southern Baptist seminary: “Evangelism is sharing the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit with a view to bringing people to repentance and faith in Christ so that they might serve Him in the church.”


Happy Easter everybody......:)
 

Quote of the Week

"Wouldn’t it be dispiritingly ironic if the American Church lost its tax exemption in order for the government to fund social services the Church should’ve been handling anyway?"

___Dan Edelin

Source: Dan Edelin at http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-crisis-part-1.html

Christian Hindus??

If you think missions are the same as the last 400 years, think again. Emergent is flooding into the theology of missions as well as in every other crack and nook of evangelicalism (I even read about emergent parenting today. Wait until you read my future post describing that). Here is the thinking about missions that is becoming increasing influential. Have you ever heard of a Christian Hindu? A Christian Buddhist?

We have actually seen this here in some of Messianic Judaism. Much of this disturbs me as many of them want to retain much of the OT law, observe Jewish festivals and other Jewish religious observances. I believe they need to reread Galatians. I have heard some bizarre interpretations of that book by some Messianics. But now this type of thing is spreading to other religious groups.

This new thinking says, you can become a Christian but still retain remnants of your current religion and be a Christian __________(fill in the blank with Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, animist, etc.). I.e. A Christian Hindu. Here is how it works according to many missiologists, both pro-emergent ones and anti-emergent ones. In other words, both opposing camps are describing the new missiology the same way. This then leads me to believe that the description I am about to give is accurate.

Let's say there is a Hindu man in India who receives Christ. He is told by the missionary that he can still be a Hindu too since (now listen very carefully to this part.....) being a Hindu is really cultural as well as religious and we don't want the man to deny his culture. So, he can attend the Hindu festivals and some missionaries even tell him he can still worship the Hindu gods. Just make Jesus one of the gods.

You might wonder what kind of convoluted thinking is going on here? The thinking is that if people in these religions convert and leave their gods/religion behind, they will be thrown out of their families or (gasp!) even be martyred. If they are thrown out or killed, then the thinking goes, they can't be good witnesses to their families and neighbors.

Once again, this is being taught in many Christian colleges and seminaries here in the western countries.
I of course, could quote numerous Scriptures against this practice and thinking, but if you have even a modicum of knowledge of Scripture, I'm sure you can quote them to me too. Again, welcome to liberal Protestant thinking where we completely surrender to the culture and in the process deny the Scriptures and the very God they portray.

Christian Carnival CCXVI--At Crossroads Today

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Christian Carnival CCXVI

Hello all. As usual we have a great line up of posts for you to learn things you might not have known nor thought of before. So, without further chit-chat from me, here they are.


*David at Boomer in the Pew went to Arizona and had a refreshing alone time with God. He lsitened to some music that you can hear too at his post, Getting Alone Time.

*Beth at CounterCulture tells us that Unity at the expense of truth isn’t truth at all and it doesn’t show real love.

*Donald at Evangelical Ecologist comments on the recent discussion on climate change in the Southern Baptist Convention in his blog post, Not So Fast….

*Andrew at Primary Focus talks about some of the players for the Minnesota Twins in his post, Minnesota Twins: The Center Field Battle.

*Tope comments on what eagles see described in Job 39:28-29 in the post, Eagle’s Eyes.

*FMF at Free Money Finance suggests to us that instead of haphazard giving, Establish a Giving Plan.

*Richard at dokeo kago grapho soi kratistos Theophilos discusses covenant and the boundaries of covenant people. Who is “in” and “out” of the church has become a hot topic recently due to interest in the writings of people like Sanders, and N.T. Wright. Although Richard isn’t specifically addressing Wright, he does have an interesting take on covenant people and boundaries in his post, True Believers.

*Boy! I wish I had a week as full of blessings as Yvette did at Fresh Wind Ministries,Int´l had.
You can read all of the seven blessings in her post, Friday´s Are Full of Blessings.

*I am taking a memoirs class with old people…er….I mean the elderly… like me. So, when I read Jennifer’s post, Happy Birthday and the Story of My Mom, I recognized it as the same type of memoirs we write in our class. Jennifer’s mother sounds like a very interesting person. Read who her mother she meets as she moves out to Oregon to be with her daughter, at Jennifer’s blog, diary of 1.

*Annette at Fish and Cans has written a good post about discipline in the church. I also saw the requirements for a pastor in her post. Perhaps it’s too easy to become a pastor today? Read her short, but excellent and meaty post entitled, The close of 1 Timothy 1.

*Using the example of Jacob in the OT, Michael of Chasing the Wind discusses our dilemma in doing what God wants versus what we want, in his post, Wrestling With God. Be sure to carefully read the second to last paragraph. I think these are some of the best points I’ve seen in a long time. Thanks, Michael.

*Anne at Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength does what in theology is called parallelism. If you don’t know what that is, read her blog post entitled,
A Different View of Scripture and you will see how she adeptly parallels parts of the Torah with parts of the New Testament.

*Chris at Homeward Bound does an interesting spin on the meaning of the cross that is different from what you hear so much of today. Read his perspective at Even Death on a Cross.

*Some of you might have read the startling headlines about what the Royal College of Psychiatrists in Britain found out about women who had abortions. Tom at Thinking Christian presents the question concerning America, Will the Media and the APA Admit That Abortion Might Harm Women?

*Wow! John at Brain Cramps for God gives us 50 reasons that Jesus came to suffer and die, in his post, Why This Friday is So Good.

*I have to say that when I read Ken’s blog, C. Orthodoxy that a Christian publisher of Sunday School materials decided not to explain the real meaning of Easter (i.e the cross) to young children, I became alarmed. But do read Ken’s take on it, which sheds a different light, in his post, Holy Week Without Jesus Death and Resurrection?

*Henry N. at Participatory Bible Blog shows us that we get different perspectives of Jesus and other Bible persons in various books of the Bible in his post, John 18:1-4 - Getting Christological Perspective. Now see? That's why we need to read ALL of the Bible.

*Mark at Pseudo Polymath compares various liturgical seasons between the three main branches of Christianity in his post,
Tic Toc.

*Henry I. at Theology for the Masses has a whole new take on the relationship of husbands and wives. He asks, do we go back to the Genesis model? The Jewish model? What model? You might be surprised what he says since he doesn’t take the usual "wives submit to your husbands" route. You’ve gotta read this at A Biblical Notion of Husband and Wife
.

*I imagine that this post will invite lots of comments. Here is a zinger from it for you:
"my conscience informs me that homosexuality is not wrong."
Now that I have your interest which is the topic of homophobia in the church, why not read the entire post at Martin's blog, Enigmania entitled, Jesus Lives; is Christianity a Corpse?

*And, finally, my contribution this week is It's About the Son Stupid!
A New Kind of Faith Teacher in which I advocate not trashing the good parts of the Faith message - just dumping the bad stuff and bringing in teachings and procedures that should have been there in the first place.

*Jeremy at Parableman discusses a topic that is being asked quite a lot today. Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? His answer is here in his post, Is the Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad?

The False and True Gospel Message

“God loves you so much and He has created you for the wonderful purpose of being a follower of Jesus and caring for the needs of your fellow travelers in the great conversation as the Story of God’s dreams and desires for this world unfold.”


Reading this I thought I was back in the 1950's in my liberal Protestant church. This type of message is essentially what the emergent churches are giving out presently. Notice how vague it is. Nothing about our need for salvation. Nothing about Jesus on a cross as Saviour (not as an "example"). Nothing about you receiving Christ and how to do it. This is precisely why I couldn't become a Christian until the end of my sophomore year in college. Note that I didn't say I "didn't become a Christian" until then. I said
"I couldn't." And why couldn't I? Read the first six sentences of this paragraph again. And then read Romans 10:14 (Hint: it has something to do with hearing the gospel in order to believe).

"But what is the conversation God is trying to have with us regarding our real purpose and what’s the message about sin according to the Lord?..... in the Old Testament — There is no one righteous, not even one. The reasonable person must therefore come away with the understanding that according to God’s perspective—which is the only one that is going to matter when each of us stands before His dreadful and awesome Presence—there is no such thing as a “good person.” Nor is there any such thing as mankind being born with some kind of innate “goodness” he reforms with the grace of God."

Amen.

Yes, the quotes are from Ken Silva. Now you can throw fruit at me. But I think the above (the stuff in quotes) is really an excellent analysis on his part, whatever else you might think of him.

Source: http://www.apprising.org/archives/2008/03/athe_conversati.html

It's About the Son, Stupid - A New Kind of Faith Teacher

As you will recall, Bill Clinton said in his run for the presidency the first time, "It's about the economy, stupid." The title of this post, of course, is a take off on this. I say this for our readers outside the United States that might think the title is offensive. It's just a take on Clintons' saying which has become very popular for take offs.

Many blog posts ago I asked for a New Type of Word of Faith Teacher. I described what I felt that person would be like and what they would be teaching. I said that I hoped I could be one of them. I usually don't watch TBN but at times I check it. The other night saw a new program with someone named Joseph Prince. After visiting his website I find he is from Singapore. I listened to this guy for over an hour and thought, "Hmmm. Maybe he has traces of the New Type of Faith Teacher." When I visited his website there were two encouraging signs.

First, there was this sentence at his website,

Joseph is now actively fulfilling the mandate that God has given him to "Bring My Son Back to the Church". He leads an international ministry called Joseph Prince Ministries, Inc., a non-profit organisation that focuses on unveiling the person of Jesus and liberating people with the new covenant realities based entirely on the cross at Calvary.

Yes, that is what every church should be doing. Bring the Son, the crucified mediator-that Son, back into the church.


Second, it said that he was a founding member (not the only one) of his church and after being the assistant pastor he was appointed as head pastor. In other words, he didn't say to his congregants, "God told me to start this church and I will select the elders." At least I am assuming he doesn't select his elders. I really don't know much about him and am not advocating him yet, but I did hear something quite different in his tone (more humble) and his message (more cross and Christ centered) than the usual WOF stuff preached today.

The third thing that just blew my mind apart is something I have never, never seen at any church website. In fact, I have rarely even had this presented to me in almost every church in which I've been a member. You can view his church's financial statement at the church website (see below under Sources).

The fourth thing I saw was that the church's organizational chart (see below under Sources) showed that the pastor was UNDER the elders (church council). YES! YES! YES! Actually they should be co-equal as the New Testament pastor was one of the elders. But I have the feeling that it may be played out that way in this church.

These are very similar to the things God showed me the New Type of Faith Teacher would be and do. I'm not sure what his prosperity teaching is and I will try to find out and report back to you. If it's going to be the typical "every Christian should be as rich as possible," then I will be very disappointed.
We MUST get back to the message of repentence and the cross and Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah, the substitution for our sins and sicknesses - NOT Jesus the good guy of the liberal Protestanism I grew up in and now the Jesus of emergent. And, we also must make our church's financial information more transparent as well as a correct first century church organizational structure, not the dictatorship of most WOF churches.

As I said previously, this church is in Singapore. Why can't I find a Word of Faith church like this here in Los Angeles County where we have over 100 cities and towns. Yeah...in my dreams I guess. I am crying.

If any of you out there think you've found a New Type of Faith teacher, please do let me know either in the comments section or email me (at the left sidebar).

Sources:
I am not necessarily advocating this guy or his church, but IF he is a different kind of WOF teacher, it might be interesting for you to visit his sites.

*The "Bring My Son Back to the Church" quote is here:
http://www.josephprince.org/aboutus/aboutjosephandwendy/joseph_and_wendy.htm

*Prince's homepage is here:
http://www.josephprince.org

The website of the church he pastors, New Creation Church, located in Singpore is here:
http://www.newcreation.org.sg

*The church financial info is here:
http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/other_church_info/financial-info.htm

*The church organizational chart of the elders, pastors, and congregational relationships is here:
http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutus/other_church_info/orgchart.htm

A Short, But Good Definition of Emergent

I thought this was a very good synopsis of the Emergent movement that seems to be built largely on the postmodern philosophies of deconstructionism and postStructuralism. Am I impressing you yet?...LOL. I have been studying philosophy lately so I can keep up with these folks.

Anyway, here is the quote I found at the LighthouseTrails blog.

Emergent spirituality states that biblical doctrine cannot be defined in stable terms (i.e., it is always changing because culture, questions, the world is always changing). Thus there can be no certainty of truth or doctrine.

Source: http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1019&more=1&c=1

Quote of the Week

Hope you won't gloss over this because it seems abstract. This short statement gives one a lot to think about when talking about easy conversion which seems to be the HOT topic right now among the Young Calvinists. And while sometimes I think they are obsessing a little too much over this, their general concern is certainly to be thought about. Here then is the quote from Challies' blog.

It must even be said that our evangelical emphasis on the atonement is dangerous if we come to it too quickly. We learn to appreciate the access to God which Christ has won only after we have first cried, “Woe is me for I am lost. It is partly because sin does not provoke our own wrath that we do not believe that sin provokes the wrath of God.

Source: Tim Challies (http://www.challies.com/archives/articles/sin-does-not-provoke-our-own-wrath.php)

In the aftermath of the Eliot Spitzer mess with the high-end prostitution ring...er..I mean "escort service," I understand NBC's morning Today program had a guest who said that if men stray, it's the woman's fault. I didn't know they had Mark Driscoll on the program.


Oh....oopsy.....it was Laura Schlesinger?

Seriously, I am becoming more and more alarmed that a segment of the church (mostly it seems to be emergent) are blaming women when their husbands stray. Of course they don't seem to hold the men responsible for much of it. The really scary thing about this is the number of women in these churches that not only go along with this, but actually teach it too.

I hope many in other churches will stand up and come against this nonsense. Both parties might be responsible, but to have an affair is really a breach of the marriage covenant, whoever does it.

Shouldn't Churches Teach the Gospel?

I keep asking myself why I cannot find a good church. After reading Chris Rosebrough's post and listening to the excellent sermon by Bob DeWaay (link is at the bottom of Rosebrough's post), I finally think I understand why. I knew there was too much psychobabble, self-esteem teaching and emergent (aka liberal Protestant) theology, but I wasn't quite sure anymore what should take it's place. This is where we might want to listen to the Calvinistic side of the church more. You have to go to Chris's post to find the answer which I hope will make you read it. I also hope you'll listen to the DeWaay sermon which is entitled, "7 Benefits of Preaching the Gospel to the Church" (at the bottom of the post). This has to be one of the best sermons I've heard in ages. Sadly, Christians aren't the only ones not hearing the gospel. In the churches I've visited in the last 8 months (4 of them, all from different denominations) I didn't hear one thing that would lead an unbeliever to Christ. I'm not talking about not having people troop down the aisle in an altar call. I'm talking about NOT hearing it...period. They must hear. That is what it says in Romans 10:14 when Paul raises the obvious question of how people can believe if they don't hear and how can they hear if no one tells them. Duh.....It doesn't take a brain scientist to figure out we must preach the gospel to unbelievers. But DeWaay also says we must preach it to believers too and he tells why in his excellent sermon.

Hey! Can't the Pentecostals and Charismatics do stuff like this? Yes, they can. But, the question is ---- will they?

Here is Chris's great post:
Evolve 08 Conference-Part 3 with the DeWaay sermon link at the bottom.

Relational vs Hit-and-Run Evangelism

I became a born-again Christian in college at the end of my sophomore year. To capsulate my testimony for new readers, I grew up in a liberal Protestant church where I never heard the gospel. Since I also grew up in an upper-middle class suburb of Los Angeles, there were no evangelical churches in my community. Nor were there many, if any, in middle class suburbs here. The Baptists and Pentecostals were mostly in working blue-collar class towns out here before the late 1970's. Then that began to change as more and more evangelicals moved into the middle and even the upper-middle class.

After college (1966) I was a member of quite a few and varied churches. In the '60's evangelism took off. I'm not talking about evangelism in the church although that happened too. I'm talking about church members going OUTSIDE the church walls and telling their friends the gospel story of how Christ bore our sins. Sadly, it was mostly a "hit-and-run" evangelism. But we did have THE message...most of it that is.

Today we are in what is called "relational" evangelism which is what we should have been doing in the first place. So, what is relational evangelism? I will put it into the words that many are saying because I like the way they are putting it. Even the emergents are putting it this way so I have to reluctantly say that is good too, but with them there is a huge problem which I will tell you at the end of this post. The way many put it is like this,

Get to know people as friends; listen to their story; and then, you will have earned the right to share your story.

This is what we should have done earlier and some, like myself, did. But too many well-meaning Christians collared people and made them feel very uncomfortable. That is why I call it hit-and-run. Tell them the message and then leave 'em and let them find a church to follow up. Or bring them to your church and then let the church follow them up without you doing much of anything.

So, this relational evangelism is such good news today. But now, in an ironic twist, many who are evangelizing relationally really do not have a message. In fact, the message has become what I heard in my liberal Protestant church, and folks, trust me when I say this - that message does not save anybody from anything or help anyone in the least.

Why I LOVE Slice of L

If you haven't guessed by now, one of my favorite blogs is Slice of Laodicea. But there are several of you throughout the years, in the comment section here as well as through email to me, who have expressed your astonishment and disapproval of my enthusiasm for the Slice blog. Since I received yet another comment about this recently, I thought I would just answer all of you about it.

The blogmistress of Slice is Ingrid Schlueter. In addition to her blog, she also has a radio program called Crosstalk. You can access it on the Internet (since it seems to be only on radio stations in a few midwestern states) here. This is a very fundamentalist-type of show so it might not appeal to- [choose one] -- some, few, many -- of you. However, I got a wider perspective of Ingrid and her demeanor when I listened to her on her program.

There are two things I like about the Slice blog. First, it's very informative without being mean. At times she can tend to be a little bit sarcastic but so do I, and so do many bloggers. Singling her out, IMO, isn't playing fair. I have learned so much in the years I've read her blog. In fact, it was through her blog, that I got interested in this emergent movement and have now read 19 books by emergent authors as well as listening to some of their sermons online so I can get a handle on this thing. And I am solidly with Ingrid. Emergent has to go.

Second, I like Ingrid herself because she has such a great heart for the church and the true gospel. This lady gets lots of guff, some of it off the map, for her stands. You really have to admire that IMO. If more people would learn what is happening in our once-true-to-the-gospel churches, and stand up like she is doing, the apostates would implode and crumble. Sadly, Ingrid has become a victim of the "Christian Tolerance Police."

"Don't be mean to people. Love people by accepting them and whatever they do. After all, they are being sincere and authentic." This is the drivel that many bloggers who stand up get. Ingrid isn't the only one who gets it. Jim Bublitz of Oldtruth.com gets the guff. So does Steve Camp and Phil Johnson and....and....I could go on and on with this list.

Ingrid and I would agree on almost everything except my Pentecostalism which I am more and more defending. Also, I am not a strict, strict Calvinist; I have three toes in the Calvinistic waters. But, if I can get a lot out of Slice, so can you. I hope you will read her blog with new eyes and perhaps listen to her program once in a while.

Thanks for listening.

What Should Church Look Like

Here is another gem from Ingrid at Slice of Laodicea.

"To Whom it May Concern:

I’m looking for a good Christian church. I don’t want to sing songs off a wall, the same five notes, over and over and over and over again while I am lightheaded from standing so long. There’s a record of the hymns of God’s people that spans 2000 years. Why are we so arrogant as to think we don’t need those wonderful songs any longer? Have we gone through more suffering, more affliction, more pain for Jesus than those who wrote these enduring hymns? Does a semi-secular song writer in Nashville with a multi-million dollar music contract have more to say to us about God and the Christian life than the 17th-century hymn writer who lost four children and his wife during the 30 years War?

I don’t want to have my eardrums bashed in by the three kids in the “worship band” who can’t be bothered to bathe, shave, dress or comb their hair on Sunday morning. If it’s really all about the God that Scripture describes as ineffably holy, shouldn’t that be reflected in attitude and dress for those who serve in church music?

I don’t want a vampy “praise and worship” leader who is flaunting her wares at every male within view as she does her worship moves on “stage”. If we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, as Scripture tells us, than what’s all the flesh about? Can we no longer discern the difference?

I don’t want to see people in beach attire with their backsides peeping out of their shorts because they think that God isn’t worth their best efforts at dressing. “God doesn’t care about clothes, only man”, they say. But the real reason is that it’s just plain easier to cruise into church in jeans or whatever is still lying on the floor from the night before. Dressing up for worship of the Lord would cost them something, however little, and they don’t want to pay it.

I also don’t want to see all the variations on lovers’ back rubs where Chuck and Sue take turns massaging each other’s neck and shoulders during the sermon so everyone behind them is completely distracted. Behavior affects other people. Are Christians so self-absorbed that they never think about the people behind them trying to hear the message?

I don’t want to hear announcements during “worship” about the youth group pizza blast and laser tag event next Tuesday night, the need for grills for the upcoming church fun fest or jokes about how Bill burned the wieners last summer at the church picnic. Why can this not be put at the end after our “worship” is completed?

I don’t want Christian karaoke for “special music”. Screeching females trying to imitate their favorite pop stars belong at the local bar, not a house of prayer."

So, what does she want in a church? Please go and read the entire post here.

God Told Me To Stop Tithing??

Many moons ago God told me to stop tithing. Like many, I just wanted to do the right thing and every church I atended said to tithe. After much study, I found that the tithe was not only NOT mentioned anywhere after Pentecost, but I could not find it in early second century writings either. The reason I bring that time period up is because the people put into place by the apostles and were leaders of churches after the apostles died lived in that era. If people were to tithe, they certainly would know it too. But the most interesting thing to me is that Gentiles were never told anywhere in the NT to tithe. Wouldn't they have been told if this was in use? Afterall, the Gentiles didn't necessarily know about the OT tithe.

I had a hard time stopping the tithe as it was given half in good intentions and half, I think, in fear. Finally I broke my addiction to tithing. I was giving around 12-15% anyway, so the tithe (a straight 10%) didn't really matter as I was fulfilling it. But when I became destitute over a period of years, I had to grapple with trying to give at least the 10%. That is when God began to deal with me about what NT giving was and how it was different from NT giving. NT giving, which is best described, I think, in I Cor. chapters 8 and 9, is by faith. Tithing can be by faith but often it isn't. The tithe says, "You should plunk down 10%." There is no faith needed unless, of course, you don't have it to give. But faith consists not only of believing for something, but also hearing what God wants you to believe for. This is an aspect of faith that I don't hear taught often. Each Christian must hear God and determine in their heart what to give. IF it is 5% and you can do it cheerfully, then 5% it is and God is happy with it and with you. BUT, faith always has a requirement and that is....believing for more. So, today you give 5% and then you believe you can raise it to 6% or higher. Then when you get there you believe for a higher percentage. Pretty soon you certainly will be able to reach 10% and then higher, but that isn't the issue. 10% isn't the issue. It doesn't matter if you get there or not. However, most will and beyond, so once again, it isn't an issue.

In the Old Testament, only people with land and animals were requried to tithe..families that is. Widows and orphans and the very poor weren't required. So shame on those today who would rob the widow and the poor by putting this non-Old Testament requirement on them.

There were three tithes in the OT. One was the regular one for the priests - the Levites - and the care of the Temple. Then from time to time, God would say to give that particular tithe to the poor. And at times there was also a third one, when God would say to take that particular tithe and hold a party with it. Yes you heard correctly. Have you ever heard anyone tell you that? Of course not. If they want to teach the tithe for the NT then they MUST teach it correctly or not teach it at all. Right?

You might say, didn't Jesus tell us to tithe. No! He was talking to the Jewish leaders who were STILL under the OT law. He said, "You tithe and so you should but you tithe mint and cumin." In other words, He was saying that if someone grew a mint plant with five leaves, they made sure they took off half a leaf and brought it as an offering to the Temple. He was pointing out their legalism. The interesting thing today is how many tithing teachers use that verse to teach the tithe when Jesus was actually talking about them.

My desire for you is to be released as I was from this bondage. My finances began to turn around when I got out from under this. And frankly, in all my years of being a Christian, I have to admit I've never known anyone who had significant breakthroughs financially because they tithed. And a few went down, not up, like me. So, when I hear about all of these wonderful testimonials from all of these people about when they tithed the money just flooded in, I would love to talk personally with these ones and ask questions about their situation. Perhaps just the act of giving was what God wanted at that time. But I assure you, as the years go by, Im not sure these people will have these great testimonies if they don't grow in their faith in giving because tithing is not NT giving by faith. It is OT giving under the law.

Do We Tithe? No!

Please, please do go to the link at the end of this post which is at Dan Edelin's blog. Last week he took several polls regarding finance and the Christian. One of the polls included thoughts on the Old Testament tithe. Hooray for both Dan's commentary and the excellent comments he received (including one from yours truly). Please read Russell Earl Kelly's comments on WHO was supposed to tithe in the OT and also my comments about the OTHER TWO tithes that are never mentioned in almost any church (under Diane Roberts). We MUST get this tithe thing straightened out. Several years ago God was very firm about me NOT tithing. In other words, I was tithing and he told me to stop. GASP! Why would He do that? Tomorrow I will tell you why, and also write about what is expected of us as NT Christians.

Here is Dan's post and it's comments for you to read--Mandatory Reading!
http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/03/banking-on-god-the-tithe-part-2.html

Listening to Sermons on Your mp3, and Interviews

Sometimes we bloggers, much of the time, get into the habit of decrying certain trends and people in order to warn our readers. But perhaps it would be good to also present those who are right on and are anointed with the Holy Spirit.

Recently, I've found the world of mp3. I take a certain well-known poll online once a week or more and my reward is to get neat stuff. So far I've gotten a pizza card for $5, a wok, a neck vibrator and recently, an mp3. All of this was free including free shipping. Neat huh. Of course, you have to take a lot of surveys to get this stuff. Every time you take a survey you get points. At any time you can go to a certain website and see what you get for your points. If you want the higher priced items, like stereos, you have to wait months and months - almost a year - to get them.

So, now I have an mp3. You might be curious to know what a 64-year old lady (well...almost 64....the event will happen in a few weeks) is doing with an mp3? I don't download rock, but I have begun to download sermons. I recently listened to a short one on revival by the late Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Oh my! Why cant we find and hear heavily anointed people like that today?

Here is the major site I go to as it has links to two other major ones:
http://www.sermonindex.net

And, if you are into the fundamentalist Calvinist-Spurgeon type sermons, go here:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/main.asp

Some of these sites have deceased people's recordings made long ago. Sermonaudio actually has people reading some of the Puritan's sermons. In fact, one of my 17th century Scottish ancestor's sermons are there.

Sadly, I only found one with Pentecostal sermons on audio. And more sadly, you have to pay to become a member of the site. No thanks. It wasn't worth it as I never heard of the pastors there. That doesn't mean they aren't good, but if I'm going to pay, I want to know what I'm getting.

Other websites, especially some bloggers, have written articles and sermons from people of the past. A good site for this is Old Truth.com found here:
http://www.oldtruth.com

And a few bloggers like Tim Challies, have interviews with well-known Christian pastors and teachers:
http://www.challies.com

I recently read one of Challies' interviews - the one with Os Guiness. I wasn't that familiar with Guiness but after reading the interview I sure want to hear him more. What he says in the interview IMO is what we all should be hearing in our churches every week. But sadly, in most churhces, we aren't. We are in a period of very low Christianity today, what the 19th English Baptist pastor, Charles Spurgeon called, the Downgrade. In other words, we are going down the grade. Here is Tim Challies' interview with Os Guiness and it's worth the read. Oh by the way, my final note to you - be sure to get your mp3's and IPods so you too can listen to great sermons of the past and present.

Here is the link to Tim's Guniness interview:
http://www.challies.com/archives/interviews/an-interview-with-os-guinness.php

Driscoll.....Again....Sigh

Sorry. I am on a rant today. At times I need to do that. So, here is today's rant.

There is a lot of ballyhoo about Mark Driscoll's sermon on the Bible book of the Song of Solomon. At the end of this post I will give Steve Camp's blog link where he discusses this. Camp is one of the few who will take on this type of nonsense...thankfully. I elected NOT to listen to the audio at Camp's site of Driscoll blathering on about....well.....the words, almost pornographic were used by a few of the commenters at Camp's blog about Driscolls sermon. Frankly, I'm tired of the emergents' "almost pornographic" stuff. Oh I forgot. Driscoll is no longer emergent according to him. You could have foooooled me. More of us need to speak up about this. Driscoll is not the golden boy that some of the Calvinists want to portray. In fact, the White Horse Inn should be ashamed of themselves for inviting Driscoll to their program and giving him so much credibility. For pastors, many on the Phd level, there was no excuse for this type of sloppy research of guests. If he is invited again, I am determined to email or even write them via snail mail and ask them if they actually ever listen to him?

So, I go back to what I keep saying here. And that is, if people would stop going to these churches and supporting these people, expecially those in leadership pandering after them, they would either change, or close up shop and go back to selling used cars or whatever they did before the pastorate. People who contribute to his blog Resurgence need to wake up. And so does John Piper according to many of the commenters at Camp's blog. Piper is supposed to be mentoring Driscoll, from what I understood. The good ole' boy network needs to be shutdown. And what is that you ask? It's the "I will scratch your back if you scratch mine. It's the monkey game - "I see nothing, know nothing, hear nothing about what you are doing." Jim Bakker's board and the Assembly of God leadership played it with him; Ted Haggard's elders played it with him. I know Piper has expressed his concerns to Driscoll. Mabye he needs to speak LOUDER (being facetious here). The tragedy is Driscoll's theology is relatively good. Now if, as one commenter at Camp's blog said, he would just start speaking to adults instead of to a 18-year old male audience, he would be fine. I also am becoming alarmed by what I see as his hostility toward women.

Here is the link to Steve Camp's blog post on this matter with the offending audio included there if you wish to go there.

http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2008/02/has-jesus-become-punch-line-to-your.html