The Signers--Some are very Surprising Indeed

Well, I just read all the signators of the Manhattan Declaration and I have to admit I am in ten more times in shock than I was with the ECTI and II signers. Here are a few that I would have never guessed during my lifetime would call Eastern Orthodox and Catholics "Christians" in the same sense as we Protestants understand that term. But then, that is the way nowadays.....synthesis, synthesis, synthesis. The "regulars" of the Christian Right didn't surprise me as they will get into bed with anyone who shares their political and moral beliefs. Perhaps I am being too narrow so will think about my view on this. But here are the ones I'm really amazed at:

*I guess Albert Mohler is the biggest surprise to me, although he explains his decision here.



Here are some more that astonished me:

*Randy Alcorn
*Ligon Duncan
*Michael Easley (President emiritus, Moody Bible Inatitute)
*Rev. Jonathan Fallwell (son of Jerry)
*Steven Garofalo (apologist)
*Dr. Timothy George (Beeson)
*Wayne Grudem
*Dr. Dennis Hollinger (Gordon-Conwell)
*J. I. Packer
*James and Betty Robison


Many of the above are very Reformed and have for years excoriated the Catholic faith. And now they are signing stuff with them and calling them "Christians?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I see some hypocrisy here. Dan Phillips has a great question to ask these people (out of nineteen):

If your son or daughter were to tell you that he or she wants to join the Orthodox or Roman Catholic church, "Because anyway, you said they were Christians just like you are, except for 'ecclesial difference'---how would you respond?
(Source: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/nineteen-questions-for-signers-of.html)

I would love to hear how these people answered that one.

Good Post About How Churches Handle Your Info

Bob at the Onward, Forward, Toward… blog, has been presenting a very unusual discussion about church privacy issues. Specifically, your church probably has a lot of information about you including your address, phone number, perhaps email and any other thing you have told them (i.e. occupation, marital status, age, etc.). Bob has brought up the issue of how this information is handled, and who sees it? Specifically, do some churches, in order to raise some money, sell your information to other ministries or even to businesses? Should there be some sort of privacy policy to protect church members from unwanted invasion of their home mail, email, phone, or even people visiting their residences? The residence invasion is my idea in all of this because as a single woman, I want to be careful who knows where I live. There are a few "crazy" Christians out there who want to stalk you because of some fascination they have about you. Here is the last part of the Bob's Part 3 post which I think nicely sums up what he's saying over all. There are also links in this post to the other two parts.


"In summary, the need for privacy policy and information safeguarding in the church is an issue we can no longer deny. It is now needed.

From churches ‘desperate’ for moral change to the outraged Christian mom made hysterical by a ‘family news alert’ on Christian radio, people are using the pragmatic philosophy of “by all means necessary” (with no respect or regard to the rights and feelings of others) to sell/give out personal and private information of their fellow church members “in God’s name” to Christian organizations to “alert” others to the pressing needs of their own agendas. To these people, it seems that a sense of “possessed psychopathy” has taken over their entire being to the point of believing that promoting “the cause’ as they please by any way possible without the feeling of shame, conscience, remorse, or even guilt, supersedes the rights of others who prefer not to be bothered about that person’s personal crusades."

Here then is Part 3 for you to read with links in the post to the other two parts.

Hegel Would Be Delighted

Continuing with a discussion of the Manhatten Declaration (Go here to read it), one evangelical, who happens to be the president and CEO of Focus on the Family, wrote this. I emphasized two of the words.


Some have referred to these as “threshold issues,” meaning they represent the foundation of our faith and the pivot point from which everything else flows. This is the bedrock. If we can’t agree on these areas of doctrine, everything else will be of reduced value. These four areas are:

1. The sanctity of human life.
2. The sanctity of marriage.
3. The protection of religious liberty.
4. The rejection of unjust laws.


I thought our foundation was what Christ did at the cross. 'Pivot point from which everything else flows?' I guess I was wrong. It's precisely "doctrine" like this that is turning off many Christians, especially younger ones and turning them toward the "New Christian Left." Why? Because it is a retread of the Christian Right rhetoric of "let's put laws on people to change them." I understand that we need to stand up for our beliefs, but when the unbelieving world constantly think that our beliefs are the four tenets above, it's just sad. We can have both, if our CHristian leaders would just have courage. By both I mean Deeds AND Creeds. In other words, Christ's substitutionary death AND why we believe the above four things as an outcome of us receiving grace to participate in God's new life is what we need to be voicing.
This is called...gasp.....conversion. I realize this is the dreaded word (along with "born again") in evangelical coolness today but we need to say it anyway. The proper teaching should be "Deeds follow Creeds." And then there is this pesky ecumenalism question that is disturbing to many Christians (I am also questioning it). This truly is a Hegelian synthesis dream.

Interesting Webplaces to See

Here are a few intriguing posts and places to visit this week.

*At the Gospel Coalition there is what I think is probably the best description of the "New Gospel" of the emergents and other postmodernists. A Great synopsis indeed!


*At the UK Telegraph paper, a blog by James Delingpole challenges us with a very unique thought--if you have invested any money into the new technology for meeting the challenges of global warming, with this debunking that is now out, should you perhaps withdraw from your investment? In other words, are these "environmental companies" going to fail?

*Well, this Manhatten Declaration is out and already the Calvinists don't like the fact that Catholcis and Eastern Orthodox are among the signers. I think I understand their point, but I made the point of who will even know about this thing since the mainstream media certainly won't report on it, and probably most of the Christian media won't either. But, I might have been wrong. Bill O'Reilly is talking about it and since he is one of the msot watched cabled news commentators, maybe people will learn about it anyway.

Great Description of the Transition in Evangelicalism

I was looking at the description of the new Roger Olson book at amazon.com and as I was reading the product description, I thought, "Boy, is this part of that description ever a great phrase to describe the transition evangelicalism is going through..........
facts/rationalism vs. feelings/experience.


Postconservatives want to free evangelical theology from its paradoxical captivity to rationalism and its obsession with "facts" so that it may recognize truth in experience and personal knowledge.


From the product description for Reformed and Always Reforming: The Postconservative Approach to Evangelical Theology by Roger Olson

Unbelievable

You think the evangelical world has hit a low and then you learn there is a new low achieved. This is happening so rapidly--the downgrade that is--that one cannot keep up. Now I'm hearing some Christian novelists want to write about Christian vampires. Please tell me this is a joke.

Anyway, this is a great idea (and a spoof) for a "Christian" novel by Tim Challies.

It's title is.....The Ultimate Christian Novel.

Christian Carnival CCCII

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Welcome to this week's Christian Carnival.

*I am going to start out with a post that I had to think a lot about as to whether it should be included because it's kind of on the borderline of what we accept here - that is, a distinctive Christian view. I've decided to include it with the caveat that the reason for inclusion is to sharpen all of us in our thinking about an apologetic to give this post concerning why or why not the Bible is God's inspired word and not just a lot of writing from mere human minds. The post is entitled, Biblical Truth...an Oxymoron? and is found at the Challenge Your Faith blog.

*Is it good or bad for churches to accept credit cards? Free Money Finance asks this question in the post, Now Even God Takes Credit Cards.

*Kim Moreland tackles the ethics of using skin cells from aborted babies to make a product in her post entitled, A Detestable Product at The Point Blog.

*OK...all of you bright people.....in his post, Discussion Question: On Science and Morality, John of the Brain Cramps for God blog, asks you this question (and he wants feedback):
What ethical and/or moral principle, if generally accepted by society, would best encourage the good use of scientific progress, and discourage its bad use?

*Having been a caregiver for almost six years for my bedridden elderly mother, I can really relate to this post by Kaye entitled, Peace of Mind for the Sandwich Generation at the blog, SandwichINK.

*Rodney at RodneyOlsen.Net has issued a financial challenge to us in his post, Give It Away.

*I really like the Returning King blog because he usually agrees with me........ Seriously, here is another great post from his blog entitled, The Elements of the Gospel: Grace.

*I always find it interesting when a gay/lesbian who has become a Christian tells what it was/is like being in their shoes. The Signs of a Struggle blog does just that. In his post entitled, Would You Like Some Grace with That?, Thom shares his own struggles with this issue and the grace God has extended to him.

*A Jordanian Christian tells about his incredible discovery of God's love through reading the OT book of Hosea in his post entitled, Who is God – Part Two at his blog, INSPIKS.

*What is presented at the Christians in Action blog is a very good foundation to build on in your Christian life in the post entitled, Living Holy.

*I think trusting the Lord is one hot topic today as we seem to be in perilous times. This post at the Chasing the Wind blog covers many aspects of this topic in the post entitled, Trust in the Lord.

*NC (that's North Carolina) Sue asks, What to pray for? at the IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND HAVE OUR BEING blog.

*Michelle at the Stepping Out In Faith To The Nations blog writes "about her mountain top experience" at a missions conference and then the let down when she went home. So, then what did she do? Find out in her post entitled, 11.16.09.

*Mikes post, Real Rebels Dance During Worship warms my Pentecostal heart, at the deCOMPOSE blog.

*Trent at the Christian Men-Christian Warriors blog has a very interesting viewpoint of the Scars of Christ.

*Many Christians today are setting up organizations to buy foods and crafts from people in third world countries as a means to help them be more self-sufficient. Barry at the who am i? blog encourages us to look for these opportunities and even suggests one place to look in his post, Christmas presents that ALSO help the needy.

*This must be one of the most intriguing questions I've ever come across. In fact, I'm not going to give the title of the post as it will give it away. However, the post is short so why not check it out. You can find it here.

*How can we offer hope to people who are hurting? Ridge at the American Missionary Fellowship Blog exhorts us in this in his post entitled, Hope.

*I think I might need the [dog] collar that the author of this post suggests. It's entitled Renewing the Mind at the Soul blog. Perhaps you might need that collar too?

*Rey at the Rey's A Point Blog shows us in 9 videos his favorite movie moments in his post, Top 9 Stand-Up-And-Applaud Movie Scenes. I just have one question, Rey. Why are the scenes all about death and blood? Yuch!

*I've never thought of a budget adding a spiritual dimension to us like bringing peace, but Emily of the Prosper and Be in Health blog challenges us to consider the spiritual outcomes of a good budget. She also helps us to make one in her post entitled, How to Make a Budget That Works.

*This post entitled, Things I've been Pondering IMO should be entitled, "Things I've Discerned." There is so little discernment in the evangelical church today, and when I read Annette's post (of the Fish and Cans blog), I was so excited. I believe she correctly discerns two things that many churches are taking for granted today. But should we?

*Okay, it's philosophy-theology time at Parableman. Today there is a lot of discussion going on about what God knows in the future and how that affects our freedom of choice. That discussion has gotten going through those like Greg Boyd and his espousal of open theism (also know as open view). But I have to admit, until I read this blog post, I had never heard of Molinism (and I certainly didn't know what counterfactuals were). But after reading it, i think I might be one of these molinism people. Why don't you read it and find out where you stand on this issue. By way of encouragement Jeremy does make it very understandable. The name of his post is I Samuel 23 and Counterfactuals of Freedom.

*My contribution this week is The Fantasy God. In this post I voice my concern about what type of God so many of our younger Christian adults are creating.

A Clever Blog Post

This is a different spin that I've never thought of before....it's very clever. The post starts out by talking about Christians who boycott certain stores that don't share their values. But then it completely takes you by surprise by saying.....

Well, you'll have to read it for yourself to find the surprise........

Who Are You Going to Boycott This Christmas?

The Fantasy God

I am saddened today to see so many young Christians, both teens and younger adults, not perceiving God as who He is. They have created a postmodern "fantasy" God. The fantasy God is very tolerant, even of evil. This God is always merciful but never judges as that is "intolerant and mean." The fantasy God allows almost complete freedom for you to do almost anything you want to do in the culture as long as you don't steal or murder. What is written to Christians in Paul's epistles as well as Peter's is usually ignored and called "legalistic" and old-fashioned. I have reported here before that a professor at a Christian college in Texas emailed a blogger to report that when she gave the college-required devotional before class, she selected a Psalm that talked about God's judgement. To her astonishment, her "Christian" students became very upset and said that wasn't how God was; that He is always kind and loving. Let me repeat. This professor read OUT OF THE BIBLE. But the "Christian" students put their own spin on God's own words. Their fantasy God couldn't have said that. They didn't wish to hear it. The professor became so upset over this she quit. Good for her. I have a friend who went to this college, graduating a few years ago. She reported to me that about a third of the student body feels this way. How did this fantasy God get such a strong hold on our younger adults? Well, lets see----30 years of clown youth group with little Bible teaching and almost no dctrinal foundational teaching along with a very poor theology of the Holy Spirit in our churches created this mess. And how do we correct it? I think I just gave the answer in the preceding sentences.

Jetting Around the Blogosphere

Here are some choice posts for you to ponder:

This is the logical conclusion you have to come to if you udnderstand that the emergent/Postmodern "evangelicals" consider the logocenter of their faith to be doubt and uncertainty. Then what abour assurance of salvation? Well, sadly, that really suffers. Phil Johnson really nails that concept and talks a bit about universalism here.


As I've written here before, I do not identify with the Charismatics because there are just too many problems in the movement (and have been almost from the get-go in the 1960's). But once in a while you do find a sane Charismatic. I think I just might have found one here.


We are now aware of the need for church security from theft in cars in the parking lot during the church service; of the need for churches to do a thorough background check of their employees as well as those volunteering with children; but, what about security from church employees that sell your information on church records to outside organizations. This certainly is a different subject, and Bob at
Onward Forward, Toward tackles it in the first of what looks like perhaps a multi-part series.


The sickening thing that so many do not know about is what is happening in our historic evangelical Christian colleges and seminaries today. You can get a glimpse of this sad state of affairs at, From the Lighthouse. Go down to the Nov. 10, 2009 post about Bethel University. And sadly, this isn't unusual at all at today's Christian colleges.

A Great Idea to Get Young Adults and Older Adults Together

I came across this the other day and it illustrates exactly what I've been talking about concerning getting the church unsegregated according to age.


Friendship knows no age barriers, and a series of events at a church here is showing that clearly. The next in a series of gatherings titled Where the Yellow Brick Road Meets Memory Lane takes place from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. Saturday, Nov. 14, at Vancouver Wesleyan Church, 5621 N.E. 78th St. The first such event took place this summer, seeing teenagers and senior citizens playing together, sharing a meal, and developing new friendships. [The]Purpose of the event is to see seniors and young teens share experiences, create a sense of family and generate vitality

Now, read this from the same article,

a noticeable decrease in the cohesiveness of the family unit is resulting typically in seniors and young teens spending most of their time within their peer groups. The perception and experience of life differs widely between these generations.

It's truly amazing that churches that say they want to improve the emotional and mental well-being of their congregations don't get that this constant segregation is actually working at odds with the church's own goals in this respect. The article ends with specifics of exactly what the younger adults and the seniors do during the event.

The two focus groups for the participants are young people between ages 10 and 15 and adults 55 and older. Through activities, members of each group discovered a deep understanding and appreciation of the other generation from their participation at the first event.....The agenda features two distinct parts, with lunch served in the break. The group is made into pairs of one senior with one youth for partnership in the activities. The first half includes a game of sharing with thought-provoking questions such as “What has been the best day of your life so far?” and “Tell about a time when you laughed uncontrollably.” Sharing these fun memories allows the seniors to tell favorite stories about their lives and allows the juniors to share about their young experience of life as it is today.

The second half of the day is composed of a not-so-average scavenger hunt and creative project. The participants search through an assortment of magazine clippings for an image representing influential words chosen at random, such as “courage”, “love” and power.” Each partnership shares how the image they chose embodies the meaning of that word and each person builds a collage with their images to take home. The joy of kinship and bonding between the partners stands as the ultimate goal for the activities.

Source: http://www.cnnw.com/Theyoungandyoungatheart.html

Quote of the Week

This is a great statement from Michael Spencer at the Internet Monk. Lately, this is just what is possessing me and making me crazy too.


I’m left sad that I can go weeks without hearing the Gospel, but never a day without moralism, culture war idolatry and consumer church.

Those Darn "Peripherals"

I read an article in the November issue of Charisma magazine in which the following appeared,


If we divide over forms of church government or peripheral doctrines, we will miss completely the true purpose of the church, which is to make disciples of Jesus.


I always wonder what "peripheral doctrines" are when people use this term. It used to be things like baptism--infant or adult and things like that, but today things are so screwy in evangelical doctrine land that I wonder what "peripheral" means today? When one leading emergent in a speech 5 years ago said that he "doesn't think the [substitutionary] atonement is that central to Christianity. In fact I don't think it's that important at all," I wonder if that is "peripheral." And what about church governments? Not Important? Has anyone out there ever been under a really abusive pastor? I bet in nine times out of ten the church government involved didn't have elders, or if it did, the elders were chosen by the pastor and were nothing more than "yes" boys. But church government is "peripheral."

I'm wondering if we need to assess what really is peripheral. If the Holy Spirit is supposed to be leading us, then obviously He won't be leading us in different directions on anything. To say we can walk together when apart on doctrines kind of violates Amos 3:3, does it not?

Amos 3:3--"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Weeds of Apostasy

Today I visited the cemetery where most of my relativesare buried. First, I need to give you some background. Four years ago this cemetery was closed down and the owner arrested because she sold some plots to several different people, and the state inspectors also found ashes in the crematory section in coffee cups and on the floor. After a few months the court allowed the cemetery to be opened two Sundays a month. However, there was no money to provide for upkeep, and in the summers the grass turns brown; all year around the grass grows over the outside graves. it's a sad sight to see. People are invited those two Sundays to tend their loved ones' graves. They may bring jugs of water to pour on the grass oround the graves and pruning tools to cut the grass overgrowing the graves. I brought water today and pruning shears. I hadn't been there in three months but thought I could easily find the graves as I had done for the past 3 1/2 years. Well, it took me ten minutes to find the two graves of my grandparents. Some graves had so much grass on them they were mounds. After tearing back thick vine-like weeds on several graves where I thought they were located I did find them. It took me an hour, 1/2 hour for each grave, to remove all the weeds and grass that had grown on top of those two graves. After I finished, I threw two heaps into the recyclable trash can that was nearby. So, I've decided I had better come more often.

As I sat tending the graves, this blog post came to me.

The evangelical church today is in terrible shape because they have basically allowed years of weeds to grow, thus turning the movement into a kind of graveyard. If they had cut the weeds out when they appeared instead of allowing and rationalizing why they needed to be there, I think we would have a much better church on the whole than we have now. The weeds have choked off sane doctrine so that we only hear today, "Deeds not Creeds;" and; " We don't need to tell people about the cross and what Jesus did there--we just need to love them." Satan seems to produce these exact "weeds" over and over again. We are seeing Marxist liberation/liberal Protestant thought now in our evangelical churches, and satan did the very same thing in the 1960's and a similar thing in the first decade of the 20th century. As for doctrine, satan did the very same thing in the late 19th-early 20th century with the liberal Protestants who were saying basically the same things as the emergents and others are saying today. I know they think they thought this up and are unique, but they aren't. In fact, as early as the early 18th century in America, pastors were complaining about Unitarianism creeping in (basically similar in many respects to later liberal Protestantism). So we see the "weeds" coming into the church in every era. Then God straightens it out, but then later we allow the "weeds" to creep in again. Then He straightens it out and we allow them back in again. But sometimes a long time passes before the straightening out period. What happens to people during those times when the church is so covered with "weeds?"? Well, look around and you will see what the "weeds" have not only done to churches, but to our country too.

Anyone want to join me in bringing in the pruning shears to cut some of this back and then trhow the "weeds" into the trash can?